Originally posted by Petrushka
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That is a mighty list! -
This SACD is from the Canyon Classics 1993-5 Osaka PO cycle, re-re-issued since as CD/HDCD/SACD, both in boxsets and single releases. But the download from Qobuz that BeefOven enjoyed is from the last of Asahina's 3 Osaka cycles, recorded by Exton in 2001, but only featuring 4,5, 7-9. All his 8ths appear to be of the Haas edition. Abruckner.com reveals 15 different Asahina 8ths extant at some time since the 1970s! His music is, after all, perfect for showing off a high-end hi-fi, of which Japan has a richer tradition than most (but then, as we listen on in the long dark hours, Bruckner has something to teach us : a certain humility before beauty, a recognition that the best equipment serves the music; disappears, leaving only the music, floating in the domestic space...)Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
The first cycle appeared in 1976 on the Jean-Jean label (including two different 8ths) and is by all accounts the most raw and exciting, but alas I never tracked one down at a realistic price. There is also a composite set with 5 different Japanese Orchestras on Victor (JVC, Vicc) in a handsome black & gold box (John Player Lotus..!). Recorded from 1978 - 1989, this is the only one I own and despite one or two disappointments (e.g a laboured, too-Wagnerian account of No.1) it's a fascinating listen, with Asahina's typically patient, spiritually faithful, one-basic-tempo approach offset by strikingly transparent, lightfilled textures and a lovely lyrical, often danceable feel to trios, adagios and gesangsperiodes. Very different from a European tonal palette but very beautiful and faithful to Bruckner's pastoral and religious inspirations. The three acoustics, well-known to anyone who ever browsed and bought from HMV Japan, are marvellously engineered, very naturally mid-hall in 3D, palpable ambience, wide dynamic range. I must say though, I tend to prefer the Tokyo Bunkakaikan or St. Mary's Cathedral as Bruckner venues to the Osaka Phil's own Festival Hall, despite the lifelong partnership of Asahina and the orchestra he founded (in 1947) in this repertoire. The Tokyo Metropolitan SO's 2nd (1872, Haas) in the Bunkakaikan shows it off beautifully, in a glowing, flowing performance which evokes meadow and naturlaut, the Schubertian tributaries, but has fullness, weight, sonic and emotional reach. In 7 and 8, the Osaka Phil reveal the stunningly unconventional St. Mary's Cathedral as a glorious space for Brucknerian resonances, Asahina draws out the chorales to exploit it, the strings shine with iconic, stained-glass translucence, and the engineers deliver such dynamics and sheer weight to drive any hifi-system to the ragged edge!
(If only more Bruckner were recorded in such places; the Wand/NDR 1988 Lubeck 8th on RCA comes to mind, but a closer sonic match would be the 3-movement SWR 9th in the Ottobeuren Basilica, of 24/06/79, Profil Hanssler 2005).
The summary here (from someone who seems to have heard a great deal more of Asahina than I have) is one I would largely agree with
but I would emphasise the sheer pleasure to be had from Asahina's devotional, unassuming readings. At their best they have a tonal beauty, a very natural, barely-perceptible rubato, often exceptional recorded sound and a freshness of approach from the orchestras themselves.
The current choices at HMV Japan aren't as bewilderingly various as a few years ago (around 2007 you'd stumble from page to page, drunk on the offerings from Toshiba, Exton, Altec, BMG-J, TDK, Venezia, Denon Mastersonics... and all that live Bruckner from Wand, Sanderling, Matacic, touring with their own bands or raising the inspirations of the NHK...). Choice seems difficult-to-impossible now; the Canyon Classics Osaka Phil 1994 set is probably the best cycle (around £100 at HMV-JP http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Bruck...5-11CD_4223757), but all I have of it is No.1 (on HDCD), splendid as it is, which never drags its feet at just under 50'.
Still, sampling the Qobuz Extons, even at 320 kbps they seem to display something of that lightness of texture and spirit that typifies Asahina at his best, and he keeps them moving too, with 4 and 7 coming in at just over the hour. I've not heard them before, but they may be worth a shot...Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 22-04-16, 14:56.Comment
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There are quite a few Asahina-Bruckner recordings both video and audio on YouTube, These are well worth exploring. JLW is right about the healthy amount of Bruckner performance in Japan which I can only assume must have originated during the wartime alliance with Nazi Germany. There are some real gems there ... if you see anything written in Japanese click on it! I'm not sure about the music being played in cathedrals, though. I once attended a performance of the 9th in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral and it was an unmitigated disaster due to the ruinous reverberations of sound, at least from where I had been sitting. Of course, I may have been just unlucky but it only confirmed my view that the symphonies were always meant for the concert-hall and not the church.
Returning to the 8th there is a marvellous video on YouTube with (apparently) The Verbier Festival Orchestra and Jaap van Zweden ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e4AJRCV5wg
The enthusiasm of youth only adds to Bruckner performance for me. The composer was very popular with his students and often seemed more comfortable in younger company judging by what we have been told. There is another excellent youthful account of the Fifth by the Bruckner Orchestra Sydney/Max Macbride, though it has been uploaded in separate movements. There are quite a few others from various corners of the globe.
Delighted to see the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra are performing Bruckner once again at this year's Proms ... unmissable for some!Comment
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Henry Fogel, who is the emeritus President of the Chicago SO and who is now a Radio Personality on our local Classical Radio Station, had several shows devoted to Asahina, who worked in Germany in the late 1920s and early 30s and was introducing Bruckner to Japanese Audiences in the mid 1930s.Comment
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Welcome back, Jayne. Your contributions have been much missed. I bought (for about £16) in Osaka last year Vol. VI of Tower Records Victor Heritage Collection, which consists of performances of the 4th, 7th and 8th plus the Overture in G minor. I'm sure that they will be the same performances which are in your JPS box (Japan Philharmonic in the 4th; Tokyo Symphony in the 7th; Osaka Philharmonic in the 8th; New Japan Philharmonic in the Overture), all recorded in 1980. The performances are interesting (I agree with Mr Multivariate Life on the 4th not being Asahina's strong point but then he wouldn't be the first eminent Bruckner conductor to be in that position) - Gunter Wand springs to mind as a comparator rather than my Brucknerian bêtes-noires, Barenboim and the glabrous HvK.Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View PostComment
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Hi PGTOriginally posted by P. G. Tipps View Post
I listened to the USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra and Gennady Rozhdestvensky on Apple music - first time for me and it's definitely one to come back to.
I didn't know the Jaap Van Zweden was available on YouTube. I will watch that this evening - thanks!Comment
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There are many reasons I listen to Bruckner's 8th, I suppose. The ones that come to mind right now are (a) the way the opening chords of the adagio, if Bruckner's agogics are emphasised, sound more like slow and soft breathing than like music; (b) the point in the finale's coda when the orchestra makes that unprepared leap onto a fortissimo F major chord—repeated three times as the orchestra nearly grinds to a halt, as though realising its "leap of faith" was wrong. After 80 minutes of darkness and hope it's a heart-stopping moment; (c) the way the trio of the scherzo refers for a moment back to the 6th (just as the trio of that scherzo referred for a moment back to the 5th); the use of the harps, like a halo overlaying Bruckner's rustic peasant dance, beautiful in their incongruity. I'll think of more.
As for recordings... I'm not sure. There are lots of specific things I'm curious about and don't know what recording to look for that does those things. For example, I've always sort of wanted to hear is a recording which takes the coda of the finale at the required slow tempo, slows almost to a standstill at the F major chords I mentioned above & the grinding dissonance that follows them, then reverts to the movement's main (fast) tempo for the remaining 23 bars of pure C major. And plays the last three notes in tempo (or at least without the massive amounts of ritenuto everyone does) with a staccato final unison. Yes, that's very specific, I know >.> I'm just curious as to whether that would work, since that's how I seem to hear it in my head.Comment
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Very interesting and beautifully put. When I think of the piece, the first thing that comes to mind is the climactic moment in the first movement where after an enormous buildup the first theme returns three times, each time with a massive shifting of the harmonic ground beneath it, ending with the vision suddenly evaporating to leave a single descending flute. This is the passage on which a recorded performance more or less stands or falls for me, and of the recordings I know it's Giulini that creates the most awe and astonishment (every time!). Strangely enough Boulez is not far behind.Originally posted by kea View PostComment
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No HD, in my JVC "Lotus" box the performances are different againOriginally posted by HighlandDougie View Post
... life is never that simple with Asahina! The Tower Record Set came originally from JVC LPs, whereas my black & gold beauty has the Osaka Phil in 4, 7 and 8 in live Kumoshita/Hattori tapings (who seemed to follow Asahina devotedly, same engineers across 11 years..
) from 2/89 (Osaka Festival Hall), 9/83, 9/83, with the last two, as I said, memorably resplendent in St. Mary's Cathedral Tokyo. Just wonder at the design...
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The JVC live recordings (VICC-60281-91) are unique to that set and the single issues that went into it. Buzz back over to the abruckner.com disography to sort, or study, it out. You may be some time......
Yes, Gunter Wand is an interpretative point of reference (though Asahina seems often more (beneficially) concerned with "micro-managed" beauty of sound) and given the number of Profil Bruckner issues, his catalogue is catching up fast...Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 21-04-16, 16:30.Comment
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Yes!!!! Should have been on the list. Thanks for the prod!Originally posted by Tony View PostComment
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It is rather. Don't really know how I've acquired so many. Even so, a further search revealed a 1951 recording from Knappertsbusch and the BPO in the 1892 Lienau edition that I unaccountably missed.Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
There are some on my list that I haven't played for very many years (Goodall for one) so must make the effort to pluck them from the shelves."The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard HaitinkComment
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Yes! (Coincidentally I was listening to Giulini not long ago and I don't think I've ever enjoyed the first movement so much.) The interesting thing is there's a moment sort of like that in a few Bruckner symphonies (maybe all of them?) but this particular one with its solo flute and then the deep shivering that starts below it, like, IDK, ice sheets starting to crack or something, makes this almost the defining moment of Tectonic Harmonic Shift Leading To Orchestra Being Filtered Out, or however we want to refer to this Brucknerian "trope". For instance there's a similar passage in the 9th, which always makes me think of this part of the 8th; the reverse isn't true. I might be explaining it badly.Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
One thing that's sort of interesting is how we both picked up on moments of, I guess uncertainty for lack of a better word, as "defining factors" for the piece. Bruckner's symphonies after all are often associated with a sort of inevitability, but I think that breaks down in the last two (despite the "programme" of the 8th with Cossacks and Deutscher Michel and whatever—apparently authentic) which is part of the reason I like them more. Also that these doubts or uncertainties are what stick with us despite the intensity of the lieto fine... though whether it was meant to wash away/resolve the uncertainty or simply to express a hope for the future is up for argument, I guess.
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Something else to add: I'm just listening now (for the first time, I think) to the original 1887 version of the symphony and all of these moments are actually things added in 1890.... no solo flute, no harps in the scherzo, no ff F major chord... and lots more (no last three notes—they're buried in the texture; no soft ending to the first movement; climaxes in different keys; lots of important passages being subtly changed; even a very different sound to the orchestra in the first three movements, I'm not sure why). Considering that the musical material is the same, and the structure is almost unchanged, the extremely different effect made by the 1887 version is pointing me towards the conclusion that Bruckner's music is not really about structure at all, and has more to do with subjectivity and turning points?
I mean I don't know if that's a valid conclusion, but the sonata-type movements of Schubert and Schumann often hinge on tiny little details (for example, in the second part of the first movement of D. 959, there is a one-bar modulation to C major, then the music drifts into this unearthly C major/B major stasis for about fifty bars, and then there are three bars of modulation to the home dominant and the preparation for the return of the main key). If Schubert were Bruckner and produced endless revisions of his works, the "1831 version" of D. 959 might change just those four bars out of the whole section, and leave the rest alone—and with the effect of entirely changing the character of the piece. I don't know if that makes sense.Last edited by kea; 22-04-16, 12:13.Comment
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Looking at the replies to this thread I, as a listener, not a musician, comment as follows:-
I enjoy following miniature scores and have 288 in my collection. For years I wanted to aquire a copy of Bruckner 8th in the Haas edition and only last year whilst in Budapest did I find one in a bookshop, but it's an amalgam of Nowak with Haas as an addendum. No problem there! but when seeing the bits of Haas that some conductors leave out when using Nowak, I cannot understand what all the fuss is about. It's not as if the Haas bits are adding half an hour to a performance.
I used to visit Japan on business and met and became friends with a Japanese man who not only enjoyed Transport Archaeology but also classical music, not least Bruckner. Asahina was his idol when it came to conducting Bruckner and he told me many stories about seeing him live in Osaka. He very kindly gave me cassettes of Asahina conducting the 4th and 9th in concert, which I have to this minute and they are very good performances dating from 1993 and 1991 respectively.
I saw Barbirolli conduct Bruckner 8th 3 times in the short time I was able to see him in concert, the last of which was at the RFH (preceded by the wonderful performance of In the South), and it was the prospect of hearing the 8th live that first took me to Manchester from the Birmingham area. The CBSO in those days only did the 4th and 6th as I recall. I had got to know the 8th from a library LP of Karajan on Columbia, with I recall, a lumbering account of the scherzo. The visit to the RFH was a first for me and my pal got tickets for the choir stalls so I can remember to this day the sight of JB looking at the brass section with those penetrating eyes quivering left hand!Comment
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... or that structure has more to do with subjectivity and turning points?Originally posted by kea View PostComment
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