Bruckner 6

[Master Jacques]

Thanks for the clear answers - alles klar!

[Roehre]

Bruckner's symphonies have more nicknames in German than in english, and some of them are a bit tongue-in-cheek

Bruckner called the unnumbered symphony in d-minor "Nummer Null" (Number naught), and also "Annulliert" (annulled).
No.1 is after its versions called either "Linz" (1866-) or "Wiener" (1892-version)
No.2 is the "Pausensinfonie" (following the general pauses in the 2nd version of the work)
No.3 for obvious reasons the "Wagner-Symphonie"
No.4 is the Romantic/Romantische, the only title which appears as such in the printed score
no.5 the "Kontrapunktische"
no.6 the "Keckste", really an expression used by Bruckner as ostuni and Richard Barrett already mentioned
no.7 "mit der Trauermusik", referring to the Adagio, inspired by Wagner's death
no.8 is the "Apocalyptische" and
no.9 "dem lieben Gott" (after its dedication)

These titles are(were?) used in the (German) Bielefelder Katalog.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Didn't Bruckner also nickname his First Symphony "the Feisty lass"? I rather prefer "Feisty" and "Sassy" to "Romantic", "Tragic", "Philosophical" or any of the other "official" subtitles given to the works*: gives them a whole other attitude.

* = as listed by Roehre above.

[Roehre]

Didn't Bruckner also nickname his First Symphony "the Feisty lass"? I rather prefer "Feisty" and "Sassy" to "Romantic", "Tragic", "Philosophical" or any of the other "official" subtitles given to the works*: gives them a whole other attitude.

* = as listed by Roehre above.

As he was rewriting the work in the early 1890s he seems to have defended this by comparing the work to a Feisty Lass whom he had to tame (one example: by making the irregular phrases in the scherzo strictly regular e.g. )

[mercia]

bit of confusion googling - I've found only one reference to 'Die Sechste, die Keckste', but lots of references to 'Das kecke beserl' (no 1)

[jayne lee wilson]

"Sassy" sounds quite wrong to me in this context, terribly unidiomatic, bit of posh-gel-trying to-sound-cool, bit of the rouged Aschenbach about it, hey Bruckner can be fun! Etc.

Cat lovers like me come across "feisty" FAR too often, used about Strong Female Felines such as my own wegie, and it's also over-over-used by a certain type of "Gentleman" in respect of condescending praise for strong women... so that dated idiom could do with a rest as well.

But none of these words are remotely relevant to the experience of listening to the 6th are they? Which I was doing at 0400 today and hope to carry on later (Chicago SO/Barenboim, Tower Records Edition )...

[Lento]

Without wishing to be too harsh, I must admit that Katie Derham is not perhaps one of my favourite announcers. At least she seems to enjoy pronouncing foreign words and names with élan ... if you like that sort of thing.

[Nick Armstrong]

Without wishing to be too harsh, I must admit that Katie Derham is not perhaps one of my favourite announcers. At least she seems to enjoy pronouncing foreign words and names with élan ... if you like that sort of thing.

Including presenting Beethoven 3 yesterday with Italian pronunciation for 'Eroica'... surely de trop...?

[Stanfordian]

Bruckner's symphonies have more nicknames in German than in english, and some of them are a bit tongue-in-cheek

Bruckner called the unnumbered symphony in d-minor "Nummer Null" (Number naught), and also "Annulliert" (annulled).
No.1 is after its versions called either "Linz" (1866-) or "Wiener" (1892-version)
No.2 is the "Pausensinfonie" (following the general pauses in the 2nd version of the work)
No.3 for obvious reasons the "Wagner-Symphonie"
No.4 is the Romantic/Romantische, the only title which appears as such in the printed score
no.5 the "Kontrapunktische"
no.6 the "Keckste", really an expression used by Bruckner as ostuni and Richard Barrett already mentioned
no.7 "mit der Trauermusik", referring to the Adagio, inspired by Wagner's death
no.8 is the "Apocalyptische" and
no.9 "dem lieben Gott" (after its dedication)

These titles are(were?) used in the (German) Bielefelder Katalog.

Hiya Roehre,

In view of Katie Derham's 'informed' remark about Bruckner 6 maybe it should be nicknamed 'The Sassy'. Yes, I can just imagine Bruckner using that term.

[Karafan]

But none of these words are remotely relevant to the experience of listening to the 6th are they? Which I was doing at 0400 today and hope to carry on later (Chicago SO/Barenboim, Tower Records Edition )...

From which I surmise, Jayne, you either have (a) a detached yeoman dwelling; (b) damned fine headphones or (c) very indulgent neighbours!

(PS great cycle, though for me that January 2014 live transmission on ORF of the VPO under Chailly is hors concours!)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Is it really worth getting steamed up about Katie's research? I still haven't got over her assertion that Elgar's The Apostles was first performed at Kings' College, Cambridge. (That's a good few miles from Birmingham)

[Lento]

Including presenting Beethoven 3 yesterday with Italian pronunciation for 'Eroica'... surely de trop...?

Je suis tout à fait d'accord avec vous.

[trbcm]

Bruckner regarded his 6th symphony as one of his most original works: a pronouncement which was not, I suggest, the consequence of any atypical “sassy” / saucy content, for the very good reason that it contains none, unless you take that view regarding the trio.

What it does include is a gloriously noble coda to the first movement, and a second movement which is among the most deeply moving, sad, arguably threnodic music of all time. Both infinitely removed from sassy.

One would have hoped that a Radio 3 announcer might have focussed full attention on such primary facets of the symphony as these, but alas in these modern, Classic FM-wary times, such informative remarks are neither sassy nor sexy enough for Ms Derham, or perhaps her masters.

Time was when Robert Simpson or Deryck Cooke would have provided a meaningful, useful commentary which informed the knowledge-hungry Radio 3 listener………… But standards have moved on since those halcyon days.

Oh – if you want an example which finds Bruckner in something approaching cheeky mood, my vote would go to the second subject of the finale of the third symphony. It reminds us that Bruckner was a celebrated dancer (not a lot of people know that). Food for Ms Derham, perhaps?

[Roehre]

....
One would have hoped that a Radio 3 announcer might have focussed full attention on such primary facets of the symphony as these, but alas in these modern, Classic FM-wary times, such informative remarks are neither sassy nor sexy enough for Ms Derham, or perhaps her masters.

Time was when Robert Simpson or Deryck Cooke would have provided a meaningful, useful commentary which informed the knowledge-hungry Radio 3 listener………… But standards have moved on since those halcyon days.

Bruckner 6 was the subject in Graham Johnson's Discovering Music approximately two years ago, btw one of the less inspired programmes of his IIRC.

Oh – if you want an example which finds Bruckner in something approaching cheeky mood, my vote would go to the second subject of the finale of the third symphony. It reminds us that Bruckner was a celebrated dancer (not a lot of people know that). Food for Ms Derham, perhaps?

It's dance music from a barn next to a house in mourning (Bruckner's own expression regarding these themes from 3's finale).

[ahinton]

Bruckner regarded his 6th symphony as one of his most original works: a pronouncement which was not, I suggest, the consequence of any atypical “sassy” / saucy content, for the very good reason that it contains none, unless you take that view regarding the trio.

What it does include is a gloriously noble coda to the first movement, and a second movement which is among the most deeply moving, sad, arguably threnodic music of all time. Both infinitely removed from sassy.

One would have hoped that a Radio 3 announcer might have focussed full attention on such primary facets of the symphony as these, but alas in these modern, Classic FM-wary times, such informative remarks are neither sassy nor sexy enough for Ms Derham, or perhaps her masters.

Time was when Robert Simpson or Deryck Cooke would have provided a meaningful, useful commentary which informed the knowledge-hungry Radio 3 listener………… But standards have moved on since those halcyon days.

Oh – if you want an example which finds Bruckner in something approaching cheeky mood, my vote would go to the second subject of the finale of the third symphony. It reminds us that Bruckner was a celebrated dancer (not a lot of people know that). Food for Ms Derham, perhaps?

This last brings to an obviously twisted imagination the prospect of Ms Derham and Herr Bruckner dancing together; well, I suppose that it would at least keep the airwaves momentarily clear of unwarranted comments about sassiness. As to the notion of "Ms Derham's research", I - er - couldn't possibly comment...