Bruckner 7

[Roehre]

I think we are actually in agreement - thank goodness! I wonder, though, if the Ringtheater fire can in any sense be equalled to September 11 2001 the shocking event of which would surely have been seen by modern day composers (albeit on TV). I wonder if anyone can discern the influence upon whatever piece they were writing at the time?

Shocking as it was, in Vienna certainly, there is hardly any evidence, if at all, that this could even remotely be compared with nine-eleven. Traces in Brahms' work - living like Bruckner quite literally around the corner: none. Any other compositions which bear a title associated with this (Liszt comes to mind, as well as the early and very sensitive Mahler): none.

[Barbirollians]

I imagine it was horrifying and very shocking but Bruckner always strikes me as the least programmatic of composers .

Another fan of the Klemperer here but also very much of the Bruno Walter, live Barbirolli , EMI Karajan and late RCA Wand .

[Richard Barrett]

the shocking event of which would surely have been seen by modern day composers (albeit on TV). I wonder if anyone can discern the influence upon whatever piece they were writing at the time?

In my case no. I remember what I was working on at the time, it was a project that was well advanced, I was working long hours on it and I continued to do so without any change of direction, albeit with the TV on. (Anyway I found the subsequent indiscriminate warmongering of Western governments far more shocking, notwithstanding the fact that I lost a relative in the World Trade Center attack.)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

".....it is perhaps difficult to imagine that as a creative (musical in Bruckner's case) the witnessing of such an event would have no effect on any project that may be being worked on at such time."

Just out of interest, visnick, why do you find this "difficult to imagine"? As Roehre points out, there were several other composers working in Vienna at the time: is it "easier" to imagine them being more unaffected than you imagine Bruckner was, or do you hear the catastrophe having an effect on the works Brahms was writing at the time, too?

[cloughie]

Just out of interest, visnick, why do you find this "difficult to imagine"? As Roehre points out, there were several other composers working in Vienna at the time: is it "easier" to imagine them being more unaffected than you imagine Bruckner was, or do you hear the catastrophe having an effect on the works Brahms was writing at the time, too?

...and before anyone suggests it, his Tragic Overture was written in the previous year!

[Flay]

Was the third movement meant to represent the fire engines dashing to the scene?

So what does the Scherzo represent?

I see it as horseman galloping. That may be from some distant childhood memory of a TV programme but I cannot remember what it was (but I do know that it was used in a Patrick Troughton sword fight in a very poor episode of Dr Who a few years later )

[Petrushka]

So what does the Scherzo represent?

I see it as horseman galloping. That may be from some distant childhood memory of a TV programme but I cannot remember what it was (but I do know that it was used in a Patrick Troughton sword fight in a very poor episode of Dr Who a few years later )

Not sure that it represents anything or meant to represent anything. Having said that, though, the lovely melody in the trio section reminds me so much of a hot summer's day 30 odd years ago that it comes back with considerable force. Bruckner (and Elgar too) are full of little wisps of melody, a phrase here, a phrase there, that have strong personal associations. I can't say why this happens but it does.

[Richard Barrett]

I can't say why this happens but it does.

Memorable music and memorable experiences often become interwoven with one another, so that one particulr moment in a piece of music might always call up associations with a time and place that aren't connected to it except in one's mind. I suppose these associations are produced by a similar kind of mechanism to that which constructs dreams, and for that matter that which lies behind the faculty of imagining music (to name only this). As far as I'm concerned this is a much more beautiful and compelling phenomenon than wondering what was in Bruckner's mind when he wrote one or other passage in one of his symphonies. It's more than enough to wonder what's in your own mind! - especially because composing a symphony isn't an act of spontaneous improvisation that can be swayed hither and thither by external events. What we know about Bruckner's 7th symphony is that it took three years to write, and that the "Wagner memorial" passage was begun while Wagner was still alive, in anticipation of his death which was of course hardly unexpected, given that he had been seriously ill since (IIRC) at least early 1882 with the heart complaint that would eventually kill him. And not even this is essential knowledge for someone seeking to understand the music in their and its own terms.

[edashtav]

What we know about Bruckner's 7th symphony is that it took three years to write, and that the "Wagner memorial" passage was begun while Wagner was still alive, in anticipation of his death which was of course hardly unexpected, given that he had been seriously ill since (IIRC) at least early 1882 with the heart complaint that would eventually kill him. And not even this is essential knowledge for someone seeking to understand the music in their and its own terms.

What we enthusiasts want to know is unknowable so we cleave to mere circumstantial evidence.

[Richard Barrett]

What we enthusiasts want to know is unknowable so we cleave to mere circumstantial evidence.

I hope you aren't suggesting that I'm not a Bruckner enthusiast, because actually I am! But what is this thing you want to know, and why do you want to know it? (I hope that doesn't sound like a cross-examination, I'm just curious really!)

[cloughie]

So what does the Scherzo represent?

I see it as horseman galloping. That may be from some distant childhood memory of a TV programme but I cannot remember what it was (but I do know that it was used in a Patrick Troughton sword fight in a very poor episode of Dr Who a few years later )

Well fire appliances would be horse-drawn then! I think it may have been used for 'The Prisoner of Zenda'.

[edashtav]

I hope you aren't suggesting that I'm not a Bruckner enthusiast, because actually I am! But what is this thing you want to know, and why do you want to know it? (I hope that doesn't sound like a cross-examination, I'm just curious really!)

I think the "unknowable" is "what's the music about", i.e. folk have a reluctance to admit to themselves that's is not "about" anything but itself.

[Richard Barrett]

folk have a reluctance to admit to themselves that's is not "about" anything but itself.

What I'm trying to say is that isn't just about itself, it's about you!

[Richard Barrett]

hmmm... seems there's not much appetite for continuing this discussion, which IMO is a shame. I hope nobody thinks I'm claiming more insight into Bruckner and his music than anyone else, I'm just trying to suggest a mode of listening which doesn't depend on received associations but on a more "personal" relationship with the music (and not with the presumed character of the composer!) which generates its own associations. Petrushka has mentioned this kind of thing, but others seem more concerned with the influence of biographical data...

[verismissimo]

hmmm... seems there's not much appetite for continuing this discussion, which IMO is a shame. I hope nobody thinks I'm claiming more insight into Bruckner and his music than anyone else, I'm just trying to suggest a mode of listening which doesn't depend on received associations but on a more "personal" relationship with the music (and not with the presumed character of the composer!) which generates its own associations. Petrushka has mentioned this kind of thing, but others seem more concerned with the influence of biographical data...

Wonderful post, RB!