Bruckner 7

[Petrushka]

The Radio Times blurb for a performance of the Bruckner 7 on Live in Concert on Friday, April 4 reads: 'a work influenced by the composer witnessing Vienna's Ringtheater being burned to the ground in 1881'.

I've known Bruckner's 7th for over 35 years and have never heard of this so-called influence, rather understanding that Wagner's death had more to do with it.

Is there anything in this story or not?

[PJPJ]

There does seem to be that view. He saw the building burn - around 400 died in the blaze.

http://www.oehmsclassics.de/cd.php?formatid=266&sprache=eng

[Petrushka]

There does seem to be that view. He saw the building burn - around 400 died in the blaze.

http://www.oehmsclassics.de/cd.php?f...66&sprache=eng

I confess to never having heard of this event but a quick search on Google unearthed this:

Vienna’s first steam-powered fire engine arrived in 1873 – but still many Viennese buildings fell short in their fire prevention measures. The most notorious of these was the Ringtheater, an opera house and variety hall opened on Schottenring in 1874. The building’s small footprint necessitated that the architect build narrow and high – with disastrous consequences. On Dec. 8, 1881 a fire broke out on the stage shortly before a performance of Les Contes d’Hoffmann. Known thereafter as the Ringtheaterbrand, the fire gutted the building within a few hours killing 384 people in the process.

The cause of the fire remains a mystery, although it is known that the theatre’s safety curtain was not lowered. In the panic that followed the theatre’s telegraph system was not used to summon help nor were the stage water taps activated. The gas jets used to illuminate the theatre were turned off so as not to quicken the fire’s spread, but the emergency oil lighting in the narrow, windowless hallways remained inoperable after recent repair work. Plunged into darkness the terrified theatre-goers stumbled towards the main entrance on Schottenring. Here they became trapped, since at the time the doors of public buildings only opened inwards. Those that didn’t succumb to the flames consuming the theatre’s wooden and papier maché fittings were crushed against the doors by the crowd and quickly asphyxiated , and by 11.30pm only the shell of the building remained standing.

After the fire Vienna went into a period of deep mourning, and the theatre’s director Franz Jauner was thrown into prison for three months. Those who lost family were compensated and a house of atonement (Sühnhaus) was built on the site at the emperor’s expense, where it was used for charitable purposes (a new building now occupies the site and a wall plaque recalls the tragedy).

All that could be salvaged from the old theatre were several statues from the façade, which today adorn the Pötzleinsdorfer Schlosspark. The victims are recalled by a sombre memorial in Group 30A of the Central Cemetery. - Duncan J D Smith, The Vienna Review

[Roehre]

The Radio Times blurb for a performance of the Bruckner 7 on Live in Concert on Friday, April 4 reads: 'a work influenced by the composer witnessing Vienna's Ringtheater being burned to the ground in 1881'.

I've known Bruckner's 7th for over 35 years and have never heard of this so-called influence, rather understanding that Wagner's death had more to do with it.

Is there anything in this story or not?

I know of this fire, but never heard of a relation between this fire and Bruckner 7. Wagner's death, yes, but the Ringtheaterbrand, no.

[edashtav]

I know of this fire, but never heard of a relation between this fire and Bruckner 7. Wagner's death, yes, but the Ringtheaterbrand, no.

It was an horrific fire and gas explosion that killed 450 people - because of its timing about 15 minutes before curtain up on an Offenbach Operetta, it involved mainy the earlycomers. Typically, they were middle-class rather than the upper-class and aristocrats who were wont to arrive at the last minute. The dire situation was exacerbated by those men responsible for the fire safety curtain who left their posts and fled to safety without having lowered the safety device. Bruckner would have known or been friends with some of the victims. Bruckner's apartment was close to the Ringtheater and it is thought that he must have seen the shocking scenes that spread out across neighbouring streets.

There must be a chance that the apocalyptic scenes remained seared in Anton's mind and were part of the inspiration for the funeral march in his 7th symphony. I expect to be at the Barbican next weekend for what may be a fine performance. Although it's interesting to speculate what sparks a piece, in the end all that matters is the skill, imagination and technique that the composer uses to transmogrify such seeds into great music. For me, Bruckner's 7th is his masterpiece. Sadly, by happenchance, I've heard it live less often than most of the rest of his cycle. That's why I'm so looking forward to next weekend.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I too was unaware of this terrible event and its connection with the symphony. There are so many similar stories of such negligence throughout history.

[BBMmk2]

Indeed, EA,.these just exemplifies that, despite all the improvements in building construction, since then, it's the safety protocol that matters. if this is not employed, then disaster awaits.

[cloughie]

Was the third movement meant to represent the fire engines dashing to the scene?

[Beef Oven!]

Was the third movement meant to represent the fire engines dashing to the scene?

This predates many of Strauss' tone poems

[Petrushka]

While Bruckner may have witnessed this tragic event it's a big step to state that it influenced the 7th Symphony. Is there any evidence for the assertion beyond the fact that he was composing the work at the time? We do, on the other hand, have evidence that the death of Wagner was the inspiration for the end of the slow movement.

Composers have many sources from which they might derive inspiration but I do wish that commentators wouldn't make such claims without real evidence because listeners can be diverted from discovering the meaning of music for themselves.

If there is any real evidence I'd like to hear of it.

[Tony Halstead]

It was an horrific fire and gas explosion that killed 450 people - because of its timing about 15 minutes before curtain up on an Offenbach Operetta, it involved mainy the earlycomers. Typically, they were middle-class rather than the upper-class and aristocrats who were wont to arrive at the last minute. The dire situation was exacerbated by those men responsible for the fire safety curtain who left their posts and fled to safety without having lowered the safety device. Bruckner would have known or been friends with some of the victims. Bruckner's apartment was close to the Ringtheater and it is thought that he must have seen the shocking scenes that spread out across neighbouring streets.

There must be a chance that the apocalyptic scenes remained seared in Anton's mind and were part of the inspiration for the funeral march in his 7th symphony. I expect to be at the Barbican next weekend for what may be a fine performance. Although it's interesting to speculate what sparks a piece, in the end all that matters is the skill, imagination and technique that the composer uses to transmogrify such seeds into great music. For me, Bruckner's 7th is his masterpiece. Sadly, by happenchance, I've heard it live less often than most of the rest of his cycle. That's why I'm so looking forward to next weekend.

I have loved Bruckner's 7th symphony ever since I first discovered it ( via the Klemperer/ Philharmonia LP recording on two LPs) in the early 1960s. Since then I have been lucky enough to play both horn and Wagner Tuba in it on several occasions.
However, I have never been aware of the fact that it contains a 'funeral march'...! Of course the coda of the slow movement in its almost unbearable poignancy reflects the fact that Bruckner had received the news of Wagner's death, but really and truly it isn't a 'march'.

[visualnickmos]

While Bruckner may have witnessed this tragic event it's a big step to state that it influenced the 7th Symphony. Is there any evidence for the assertion beyond the fact that he was composing the work at the time? We do, on the other hand, have evidence that the death of Wagner was the inspiration for the end of the slow movement.

Composers have many sources from which they might derive inspiration but I do wish that commentators wouldn't make such claims without real evidence because listeners can be diverted from discovering the meaning of music for themselves.

If there is any real evidence I'd like to hear of it.

I hear what you are saying, certainly, but I feel that it is perhaps difficult to imagine that as a creative (musical in Bruckner's case) the witnessing of such an event would have no effect on any project that may be being worked on at such time.

[Petrushka]

I hear what you are saying, certainly, but I feel that it is perhaps difficult to imagine that as a creative (musical in Bruckner's case) the witnessing of such an event would have no effect on any project that may be being worked on at such time.

That may well be true but do we have any evidence that it did. If we don't then no such claim can realistically be made.

It might all seem to be an issue not worth bothering about, but the Bruckner 7 is one of those works that is central to my life and I cannot abide misleading claims creeping in with a view, I suspect, to making the music more 'interesting' or 'meaningful' in some dumbed down more 'accessible' fashion.

[visualnickmos]

That may well be true but do we have any evidence that it did. If we don't then no such claim can realistically be made.

It might all seem to be an issue not worth bothering about, but the Bruckner 7 is one of those works that is central to my life and I cannot abide misleading claims creeping in with a view, I suspect, to making the music more 'interesting' or 'meaningful' in some dumbed down more 'accessible' fashion.

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Again - I hear you, and I agree - no claim can be made without evidence. Critics and "experts" are very good at putting their views and opinions across as fact. But to reiterate - claims MUST be backed up with factual evidence. I think I was just saying ".....it is perhaps difficult to imagine that as a creative (musical in Bruckner's case) the witnessing of such an event would have no effect on any project that may be being worked on at such time."

Not in any sense a claim, as I am sure you will agree. I hope.

[Petrushka]

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Again - I hear you, and I agree - no claim can be made without evidence. Critics and "experts" are very good at putting their views and opinions across as fact. But to reiterate - claims MUST be backed up with factual evidence. I think I was just saying ".....it is perhaps difficult to imagine that as a creative (musical in Bruckner's case) the witnessing of such an event would have no effect on any project that may be being worked on at such time."

Not in any sense a claim, as I am sure you will agree. I hope.

I think we are actually in agreement - thank goodness! I wonder, though, if the Ringtheater fire can in any sense be equalled to September 11 2001 the shocking event of which would surely have been seen by modern day composers (albeit on TV). I wonder if anyone can discern the influence upon whatever piece they were writing at the time?