Magnard, Albérich (1865 - 1914)

[Master Jacques]

in Schmitt's maybe it has something to do with unsavoury views he is alleged to have held

I'm glad you said "alleged", because there is no foundation whatsoever for any such idea, unless you believe that calling Mahler's symphonies "cheap novels" is unsavoury!

The idea came from a piece of tabloid-style "no smoke without fire". When he was dying, he did accept a commission to compose an Austrian Nazi cantata. He did that to make sure his family were left in peace, but he made sure that he never wrote a note of the thing. At his death there were no sketches for any such work. He found Nazism and its perpetrators anathema.

His work is neglected because it needs full concentration from the listener to reveal its secrets. It is "caviar to the general", and lacks the populist clout of Mahler, for example. His music will never be popular, I think, but will always appeal strongly to a few people prepared to put in the effort of getting to grips with it.

[Serial_Apologist]

Re. Ravel/Ravet/Ravex, see http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/fir...vry-ravel.html It appears he was assumed by some to be Jewish due to his association with many Jewish friends and a joke perpetrated by Roland-Manuel. There again, I seems quite possible that his Basque mother might possibly have come from Sefardiak heritage, which, if her matrilineal descent was unbroken, would have made Ravel Jewish by Tannaitic tradition.

Thanks Bryn. Interesting. Benjamin Ivry's book on Ravel looks very good, from the text reproduced in that link, by the way.

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm glad you said "alleged", because there is no foundation whatsoever for any such idea, unless you believe that calling Mahler's symphonies "cheap novels" is unsavoury!

The idea came from a piece of tabloid-style "no smoke without fire". When he was dying, he did accept a commission to compose an Austrian Nazi cantata. He did that to make sure his family were left in peace, but he made sure that he never wrote a note of the thing. At his death there were no sketches for any such work. He found Nazism and its perpetrators anathema.

His work is neglected because it needs full concentration from the listener to reveal its secrets. It is "caviar to the general", and lacks the populist clout of Mahler, for example. His music will never be popular, I think, but will always appeal strongly to a few people prepared to put in the effort of getting to grips with it.

Indeed. While not I think generally associated with the French interwar neoclassical movement, I've long been very fond of the uncharacteristically and neatly contrapuntal little Trio Sonata Schmitt composed in 1934, which to these ears sounds somewhere midway between Ibert and Françaix, and has lovely Ravelian modal harmonic touches in the slow and very haunting third movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp0lTOVbzpM

[Master Jacques]

Indeed. While not I think generally associated with the French interwar neoclassical movement, I've long been very fond of the uncharacteristically and neatly contrapuntal little Trio Sonata Schmitt composed in 1934, which to these ears sounds somewhere midway between Ibert and Françaix, and has lovely Ravelian modal harmonic touches in the slow and very haunting third movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp0lTOVbzpM

Ah... I see we're talking different Schmitt's. I thought that ahinton was talking about Magnard and Franz Schmidt, which was very stupid of me. Grovelling apologies!

Florent Schmitt did once shout "Vive Hitler!" at Kurt Weill, but whether he was just being impish, or has a case to answer, I don't know.

[Serial_Apologist]

Ah... I see we're talking different Schmitt's. I thought that ahinton was talking about Magnard and Franz Schmidt, which was very stupid of me. Grovelling apologies!

An easy mistake to make!

Florent Schmitt did once shout "Vive Hitler!" at Kurt Weill, but whether he was just being impish, or has a case to answer, I don't know.

[ahinton]

I'm glad you said "alleged", because there is no foundation whatsoever for any such idea, unless you believe that calling Mahler's symphonies "cheap novels" is unsavoury!

The idea came from a piece of tabloid-style "no smoke without fire". When he was dying, he did accept a commission to compose an Austrian Nazi cantata. He did that to make sure his family were left in peace, but he made sure that he never wrote a note of the thing. At his death there were no sketches for any such work. He found Nazism and its perpetrators anathema.

His work is neglected because it needs full concentration from the listener to reveal its secrets. It is "caviar to the general", and lacks the populist clout of Mahler, for example. His music will never be popular, I think, but will always appeal strongly to a few people prepared to put in the effort of getting to grips with it.

As I note that you now realise, I was referring to Florent Schmitt, since I was talking only of French composers in that post. Florent Schmitt certainly did hold some most unsavoury views and made no bones about them, although it's unclear to what extent they discouraged people from performing his music during his lifetime or thereafter.

[french frank]

Still hoping (to-despair) that someone here will listen Magnard's 4th (the other Alpine Symphony, and so much more...) and tell us about their response....

Sadly, perhaps I'm the only one with the symphonies (Malmo SO, Sanderling), and I'm not really into any of the big symphonic stuff. [Quite like the string quartets.] I'll try and remember why I bought them …

[jayne lee wilson]

Sadly, perhaps I'm the only one with the symphonies (Malmo SO, Sanderling), and I'm not really into any of the big symphonic stuff. [Quite like the string quartets.] I'll try and remember why I bought them …

Sadly, I consider the BIS set to be the least recommendable of the four extant (also Toulouse/Plasson, BBCSSO/Ossonce and...a recent Bollon...), - just too monumental and unsmiling. The music needs more grace, flexibility and variety of tone.

If possible you should hear the latest set on Naxos, with the little-known but greatly-gifted Fabrice Bollon and the Freiburg PO....wonderful lightness and transparency from the very start of No.4 (the horn call hinting evocatively at the Alpine end).... but a great climax later!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=magnard+symphonies+naxos+bollon&rh=n%3A229816&dc&qid=1637342357&rnid=1642204031&ref=sr_nr_n_1

Very intriguing as it was written a coupla years before the Strauss. Whether he could have heard the performances in 1914 I've no idea.

[french frank]

Jayne, I've moved these last posts to the Magnard thread in order to continue:

The Sanderling set has very skimpy notes. Very little about the 4th. It quotes F-R Tranchefort reporting that Magnard himself said it was written in a state of 'utter depression' (the liner writer sees little sign of it and 'marasme' is more like 'stagnation' or 'lethargy' than depression). Grove (1980) disparages the 1st Symphony ('turgid and thickly scored'), the second is 'an advance'. No mention, as far as I can see, of the 3rd or 4th - perhaps a sign of the times?

Intriguingly, I see no reference to 4th as an 'Alpensinfonie' - is that your interpretation of the use of horns?

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne, I've moved these last posts to the Magnard thread in order to continue:

The Sanderling set has very skimpy notes. Very little about the 4th. It quotes F-R Tranchefort reporting that Magnard himself said it was written in a state of 'utter depression' (the liner writer sees little sign of it and 'marasme' is more like 'stagnation' or 'lethargy' than depression). Grove (1980) disparages the 1st Symphony ('turgid and thickly scored'), the second is 'an advance'. No mention, as far as I can see, of the 3rd or 4th - perhaps a sign of the times?

Intriguingly, I see no reference to 4th as an 'Alpensinfonie' - is that your interpretation of the use of horns?

Not just or mainly that.... more the sheer, overwhelming feeling of ascending to, and attaining a pinnacle (mountaintop if you like) in the finale; the sense of descent from that euphoria and the ambiguity afterward is fascinating.

Motto themes across the work especially on horn and trumpet have distinctly evocative higher-ground sound too, rather like some of Bruckner's Austrian inspirations, especially the trio's climax in the 8th Symphony.

I never called it "Alpensinfonie" of course, always "the other Alpine Symphony" (intended to arouse listeners' curiosity) intrigued by the date of composition and the sonic similarity to the Strauss in some passages.

See #83 and #87 for general recommendations - the Bollon set is complete now, and even more recommendable as the best way getting to know and love four fabulous symphonies! If you're really keen, then - Bollon and the gloriously-recorded Ossonce will keep you absorbed for some time..

[french frank]

(BTW - my post #97 above doesn't make sense here after my (extensive!) earlier reviews and comments. It was genuinely meant for a thread on the Strauss... "suggestions for further listening" a la Gramophone "What Next?"...
Your #98 is wrong here too, as earlier comments make clear - many others did buy & listen to them during the course of this discussion)

Sorry, I read it as an encouragement to listen to and talk about the Magnard specifically. And mine was referring to your 'despair' that no one was doing so. I can move them all back again if you like.

Meanwhile, I take your description of the 4th's qualities as explaining the 'Alpine' resemblances. More work needed (by me)!

[richardfinegold]

I remember listening to these four works at the time of this thread as it coincided with the start of my Qobuz subscription. I was more taken with the First two at the time but haven’t listened since. This is a good excuse to return to them