Cage, John (1912 - 92)

[Mandryka]

I can't resist sharing one of my favourite pieces of music. François Bernard Mâche has studied scientific research on the structure of birdsong. His Vigiles is based on the those naturally occurring forms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uttBBKsENCU&ab_channel=EnsembleVariances

[RichardB]

Mâche is a very interesting and underrated composer, although I think his use of sampled sounds is a bit unsubtle sometimes.

[Mandryka]

You might like to get your hands on the score of Cornelius Cardew's The Great Learning. There's an optional component of Paragraph 5 called TUBE TRAIN STOPPED BETWEEN STATIONS. It calls upon the performer(s) who qualify to perform it to reproduce the sounds they heard while on a tube train stopped between stations in the weeks preceding the performance. No audio recording is to be used in the reproduction of what was heard. during the stop(s).

Very nice Para 5 sample here. I've just downloaded the thing, that's my listening for today set up.

http://boltrecords.pl/4,extras/39,cornelius-cardew-the-great-learning,en.html

[smittims]

Hi, Mandryka, I've just seen your post of 0943 yesterday. We may be at cross-purposes here: Etudes Australes is indeed, precisely notated on 5-line staves, and there are no random pitches. True, there are no bar lines , so instructions have to be given about note-duration.

[Bryn]

Very nice Para 5 sample here. I've just downloaded the thing, that's my listening for today set up.

http://boltrecords.pl/4,extras/39,co...arning,en.html

I would advise against it. The performances, linked to workshops, are, in general, pretty ropy. PM me and I can send what Rich Duckworth, who was responsible for the mix of recordings from his central microphone tree and mine from three sites surrounding the performance space, made of the 2015 Union Chapel performance. To date, Rich has only made what he describes as "rough mixes" which he posted as mp3s. There was a long-term plan to release the whole 2015 Union Chapel recording on Ants Records but, so far, little progress has been made on that project. I could also make the recording of the 1984 first complete performance of The Great Learning (same venue) in which both Mr. Barrett and I participated. That was recorded using a pair of cardioid microphones placed in the balcony opposite the pulpit. While the polish workshop performances lacked any direct connection to those with long previous experience of the work, both the 1984 and 2000 performances at Union Chapel, involved several musicians who had participated in the Cecil House premiere of Paragraph 5 in January of 1972. Unfortunately, though I seem to recall Bob Woolford recording that performance, I do not have a copy.

[RichardB]

Hi, Mandryka, I've just seen your post of 0943 yesterday. We may be at cross-purposes here: Etudes Australes is indeed, precisely notated on 5-line staves, and there are no random pitches. True, there are no bar lines , so instructions have to be given about note-duration.

Although, actually, the pitches were derived (to put it simply) from transcribing star charts into notation, which makes them pretty much random.

[Mandryka]

Hi, Mandryka, I've just seen your post of 0943 yesterday. We may be at cross-purposes here: Etudes Australes is indeed, precisely notated on 5-line staves, and there are no random pitches. True, there are no bar lines , so instructions have to be given about note-duration.

Ah, thanks, I just read the Wikipedia page about it. There are lots of ideas on that page which I would like to think about more. For example - what exactly is meant by a duet for two independent hands, and what implications does it have for performance? And how does the performer make decisions about dynamics and rubato and others embellishments?

I should say that there are two which I’ve enjoyed more than others: Crismani and Sultan. This could be just my mood when I’ve been listening of course, so just an anecdote about me. It could also be something to do with their interpretation.

[Mandryka]

I would advise against it. The performances, linked to workshops, are, in general, pretty ropy. PM me and I can send what Rich Duckworth, who was responsible for the mix of recordings from his central microphone tree and mine from three sites surrounding the performance space, made of the 2015 Union Chapel performance. To date, Rich has only made what he describes as "rough mixes" which he posted as mp3s. There was a long-term plan to release the whole 2015 Union Chapel recording on Ants Records but, so far, little progress has been made on that project. I could also make the recording of the 1984 first complete performance of The Great Learning (same venue) in which both Mr. Barrett and I participated. That was recorded using a pair of cardioid microphones placed in the balcony opposite the pulpit. While the polish workshop performances lacked any direct connection to those with long previous experience of the work, both the 1984 and 2000 performances at Union Chapel, involved several musicians who had participated in the Cecil House premiere of Paragraph 5 in January of 1972. Unfortunately, though I seem to recall Bob Woolford recording that performance, I do not have a copy.

I had tickets for that 2015 performance in Islington - but because of an illness I couldn’t go unfortunately. I will PM you straight away!

[RichardB]

what exactly is meant by a duet for two independent hands

This is pretty clear from looking at the score, which is notated on four staves, two (treble and bass) for each hand, so that it looks like a piece for two pianos rather than one, and each of the two "parts" ranges over the entire keyboard, although it isn't really possible to tell just by listening which hand is playing what.

[Mandryka]

In a real duet of independent voices, the two "singers" respond to each other -- their polyphony creates the harmony and colour of the music. I just wonder whether that is what people do when playing these etudes.

[RichardB]

In a real duet of independent voices

Of course it isn't really a "duet" in that sense, and it really consists of more or less dense aggregations of single sounds rather than anything that could be called a "voice". Dynamics could be used to differentiate the two hands but I don't think that would be an idiomatic way to play this music. The layout of the score reflects the way it was composed rather than anything else.

[NatBalance]

But since NatBalance is clearly not interested in Cage's work, beyond dilatory arguments about 4'33", I don't imagine The Great Learning will be of much interest either.

Well actually from what I've heard of Cage's other work I've been impressed. I haven't heard much and don't ask me what I've heard because I just can't remember, but I remember I didn't find it as confusing as 4'33".

[Mandryka]

Well actually from what I've heard of Cage's other work I've been impressed. I haven't heard much and don't ask me what I've heard because I just can't remember, but I remember I didn't find it as confusing as 4'33".

What do you think of this performance of his 8th piano etude? I think it's gorgeous!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBFi2zQGLKA&ab_channel=FrancescoTristano-Topic

[Mandryka]

And this one, even better!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMsnXJ7X8wA&ab_channel=ClaudioCrismani-Topic

[NatBalance]

What do you think of this performance of his 8th piano etude? I think it's gorgeous!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBFi...Tristano-Topic

Oh yes, love it. I first clicked on it to just get a taster thinking I'd listen to it all later but ended up listening to it all right away. It was like dripping rain water after a shower, or melting snow. The silences beautifully done. Also liked the second one, it had touches of Scriabin.