Cage, John (1912 - 92)

[Joseph K]

Well, what I am questioning is how 4'33" can be called a piece of music, and how the so-called performer can be called so?

Richard B has already answered these questions with the point that not everything falls into neat linguistic categories.

[Bryn]

. . . As before, I think this is an idea in empirical psychology -- the idea that there is a distinct way of listening to something as music.

Bird's signaling calls (so-called birdsong) spring to mind. Are they music? Not really, though when quoted, they can become such. To humans, some certainly can sound musical.

[duncan]

I think the performer -- with props of instrument and score, and the ritual of performance, opening the piano lid etc -- are important because they let the audience know that a special sort of listening is now required. They must listen to the ambient sounds as music.

My bog standard comprehensive had a pipe organ at one end of the school hall. It was unused for many years but funds were raised and after it was renovated the whole school were treated to a short recital. The first piece was announced as a premier of a new arrangement for organ of an unnamed work made specially for the occasion. It was 4' 33". The organist, one of my fellow lads, made great play with the ceremonial of performance and the three movements were observed with different registration for each. I don't remember many events from those years but this one made a big impact.

[NatBalance]

Richard B has already answered these questions with the point that not everything falls into neat linguistic categories.

Well, like I said in my original post "The language can be bent sometimes, especially in art and poetry, but I can't see how it can be bent that far". Again, it's a case of going too far. Actually I may be contradicting myself there. I could say that I don't think Cage went far enough in that he didn't alter meditation sufficiently enough to turn it into a piece for the concert hall.

[RichardB]

One of the problems with discussions like this is that many people seem to view 4'33" as a one-off idea through which they can air their own prejudices, rather than seeing it in the context of Cage's work more generally, the rest of which doesn't appear to interest them at all, including his own extensive writings about music and ideas.

[Mandryka]

I do see 4.33 as a one off idea actually. It is such an extreme example of the composer relinquishing control of the sounds, that I see it as a one off idea.

Some things which I’ve heard said about it, including some of the things Cage may have said, seem to me to be hard to sustain. For example, my own experience with meditation makes me seriously doubt the idea that it can be a form of meditation.

[Bryn]

I do see 4.33 as a one off idea actually. It is such an extreme example of the composer relinquishing control of the sounds, that I see it as a one off idea.

Some things which I’ve heard said about it, including some of the things Cage may have said, seem to me to be hard to sustain. For example, my own experience with meditation makes me seriously doubt the idea that it can be a form of meditation.

I take it that you are unaware that there is more than one 'silent' work by Cage.

[RichardB]

Some things which I’ve heard said about it, including some of the things Cage may have said, seem to me to be hard to sustain. For example, my own experience with meditation makes me seriously doubt the idea that it can be a form of meditation.

Note though that Cage did not refer to it as a form of meditation. He uses that word very seldom in his writings and not at all in Silence. As for being a one-off, 4'33" can also easily be seen as a logical extension of the increasing use of silence in preceding works - the second movement of the Concerto for prepared piano and orchestra and the Two Pastorales for prepared piano solo in particular; "relinquishing control of the sounds" is likewise presaged by the Imaginary Landscape pieces that use radios as sound sources. However that might be, I would have thought that anyone really trying to understand what Cage was up to in this composition might start by acquainting themselves with what he himself had to say on the matter, and how it might relate to his other compositions.

[Bryn]

Note though that Cage did not refer to it as a form of meditation. He uses that word very seldom in his writings and not at all in Silence. As for being a one-off, 4'33" can also easily be seen as a logical extension of the increasing use of silence in preceding works - the second movement of the Concerto for prepared piano and orchestra and the Two Pastorales for prepared piano solo in particular; "relinquishing control of the sounds" is likewise presaged by the Imaginary Landscape pieces that use radios as sound sources. However that might be, I would have thought that anyone really trying to understand what Cage was up to in this composition might start by acquainting themselves with what he himself had to say on the matter, and how it might relate to his other compositions.

Indeed, he final movement of the Concerto for Prepared Piano and Chamber Orchestra also has several 'silent' sections, including the final bars, IIRC.

[Mandryka]

I take it that you are unaware that there is more than one 'silent' work by Cage.

I am - though I know 4.33 version 2 - the Fluxus type thing where he basically says do something and turn the amp up. Silent sections (I just saw the post above) is another matter - though I should say I don’t know the concerto (I would like to see it though!) Barraque’s sonata has silent sections!

[RichardB]

Barraque’s sonata has silent sections!

Actually the score contains not one single bar without at least one note in it, so I'm not sure what you mean here.

[Mandryka]

Actually the score contains not one single bar without at least one note in it, so I'm not sure what you mean here.

There are rests! Long rests in the second part obvs.

[Serial_Apologist]

There are rests! Long rests in the second part obvs.

Well, rests may not be notes (pitches), but they are something which is there . I haven't seen the score - I know the work to the point now of knowing what is coming next when I listen to it, having had Yvonne Loriod's recording of the work since 1966, but I should check if there's a youtube of it with the score up on the screen.

[RichardB]

There are rests! Long rests in the second part obvs.

Have you looked at the score? The longest notated rest (on page 41) is four beats in length and almost all the others are much shorter. Towards the end there are quite a few pause marks over bar lines (either marked "court" or unmarked). I see no trace of "silent sections".

[Mandryka]

Here's what Cage said about 4.33

https://www.moma.org/explore/inside_out/2013/10/28/silence-is-not-what-it-used-to-be-2/

What we hear is determined by our own emptiness, our own receptivity; we receive to the extent we are empty to do so. If one is full or in the course of its performance becomes full of an idea, for example, that this piece is a trick for shock and bewilderment, then it is just that. However, nothing is single or uni-dimensional. This is an action among the ten thousand: it moves in all directions and will be received in unpredictable ways. These will vary from shock and bewilderment to quietness of mind and enlightenment.

If one imagines that I have intended any one of these responses he will have to imagine that I have intended all of them. Something like faith must take over in order that we live affirmatively in the totality we do live in.

With or without my intention, my art is cheapened and made expensive. That is not my concern. A death to myself takes place in composing and in the event of the movement of this composition in the world, a second death to it as mine must take place. Otherwise I shall be in “fear and trembling”, in a perilous situation of my own imagination.

P. S. Incidentally, it was not I but David [Tudor] who decided upon the program. I do not say this to ‘shift the responsibility.’ But that you may be informed of how things actually take place. I composed the piece nearly two years ago. It was performed by David with mixed reactions at Woodstock, N.Y. The piece exists in the repertoire and he chose to program it at the present time. I myself am detached. I am busy with other things, a new composition, concert details of management, this letter, and this springtime.