Shostakovich: which one is your favourite amongst his works?

[Barbirollians]

Cello Concerto No1 - Rostropovich/Ormandy playing it.

[jayne lee wilson]

Quite so.

I'm trying to think of a way of expressing without sounding as if I'm making a value judgement (which I'm not) how interesting I find it (as someone who stands midway between the two reactions to DSCH's Music) that Petrushka and Jayne bring aspects of the composers' reputations and public images into their opinions, whilst kea concentrates on DSCH's Musical techniques. Is there also a case for Vom Hirnen, möge es wieder, zu Hirnen gehen?

You misunderstand my quoting Beethoven here - it was precisely because the music moved me so much and in many different ways - from the complex heart and to the contrary heart - that I wished to find out more - to understand it better. And I don't think kea said much about DSCH's "musical techniques" really - certainly not in regard to the larger-scale building of symphonic structures, which seem to me astonishingly varied, fluid, and - usually - well-made. Nor does concentration upon DSCH's obsessive phrases or intervals say anything about the range of mood or feeling in his music, which seems to me remarkably wide and psychologically complex.

Those famous metaphors we attach so much to - "heart", "brain" .... well, they're not really separate at all are they? Just small signs at the centre of clouds of meaning.....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Those famous metaphors we attach so much to - "heart", "brain" .... well, they're not really separate at all are they? Just small signs at the centre of clouds of meaning.....

That's how Art work for me, too: the enchantment, the involvement, the searching, the discovery ... and it just keeps going on, every time I encounter it; whether it's something I've known for decades or at first encounter.

When I hear Shosty #4, or #15, I can't think "This is good, but Beethoven's better" - it's a total absorption in the work: a connection between myself, the creator, the performers and everyone else who shares the experience.

[jayne lee wilson]

Happy Saturnalia, fhg

[Bryn]

That's how Art work for me, too: the enchantment, the involvement, the searching, the discovery ... and it just keeps going on, every time I encounter it; whether it's something I've known for decades or at first encounter.

When I hear Shosty #4, or #15, I can't think "This is good, but Beethoven's better" - it's a total absorption in the work: a connection between myself, the creator, the performers and everyone else who shares the experience.

Quite! When I read Stravinsky's decidedly negative criticism of Beethoven's violin concerto, or Cage's general dismissal of LvB as "wrong", I tend to just think, "Ah well, each to his own". In Cage's case, I am also reminded of his story re. mycologists' and composers' (or any other discipline's followers', come to that) stern antipathy towards some of their colleagues a progenitors. As for Boulez's antipathy towards Tchaikovsky or Messiaen's Turangalîla-Symphonie, well I just think "silly boy".

[amateur51]

That's how Art work for me, too: the enchantment, the involvement, the searching, the discovery ... and it just keeps going on, every time I encounter it; whether it's something I've known for decades or at first encounter.

When I hear Shosty #4, or #15, I can't think "This is good, but Beethoven's better" - it's a total absorption in the work: a connection between myself, the creator, the performers and everyone else who shares the experience.

Great sense you speak there fhg!

[amateur51]

As for Boulez's antipathy towards Tchaikovsky or Messiaen's Turangalîla-Symphonie, well I just think "silly boy".

[Richard Barrett]

Cage's general dismissal of LvB

JC didn't like Bach or Beethoven - if he weren't such a wonderful composer himself I'd be wondering what was wrong with him! (don't all rush to answer! )

I have to admit being completely flummoxed by BBM's

music cannot be measured, like tennis skills, or anyother sport or activity, anyone can care to mention. I think we can safely say, that, we all know, that perhaps LVB, is probably the master of them all

because the implication of saying "music cannot be measured" is surely that accolades like "the master of them all" are without meaning. Listening to something and thinking "this is good but Beethoven's better" probably means one isn't listening deeply enough...

[verismissimo]

... Those famous metaphors we attach so much to - "heart", "brain" .... well, they're not really separate at all are they? Just small signs at the centre of clouds of meaning.....

Just so many metaphors... layer upon layer.

[Bryn]

JC didn't like Bach or Beethoven - if he weren't such a wonderful composer himself I'd be wondering what was wrong with him! (don't all rush to answer! )

Patsy Davenport heard my Folkways record. She said, “When the
story came about my asking you how you felt about Bach, I could
remember everything perfectly clearly, sharply, as though I were
living through it again. Tell me, what did you answer? How do
you feel about Bach?” I said I didn’t remember what I’d said —
that I’d been nonplused. Then, as usual, when the next day came,
I got to thinking. Giving up Beethoven, the emotional climaxes
and all, is fairly simple for an American. But giving up Bach
is more difficult. Bach’s music suggests order and glorifies for
those who hear it their regard for order, which in their lives
is expressed by daily jobs nine to five and the appliances with
which they surround themselves and which, when plugged in, God
willing, work. Some people say that art should be an
instance of order so that it will save them momentarily from
the chaos that they know is just around the corner. Jazz
is equivalent to Bach (steady beat, dependable motor), and
the love of Bach is generally coupled with the love of jazz.
Jazz is more seductive, less moralistic than Bach.
It popularizes the pleasures and pains of the physical life,
whereas Bach is close to church and all that. Knowing as
we do that so many jazz musicians stay up to all hours and even
take dope, we permit ourselves to become,
sympathetically at least, junkies and night owls ourselves:
by participation mystique. Giving up Bach, jazz,
and order is difficult. Patsy Davenport is right.
It’s a very serious question. For what if we do it
— give them up, that is — what do we have left?

from: John Cage Indeterminacy.

Surely it was his Aunt Phoebe, rather than Cage himself, who so disapproved of Bach?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I forgive Cage's deaf spots if only because of the wonderful way he once explained himself. Asked if he didn't find the Hallelujah Chorus "moving", he replied "I don't mind being moved, but I don't like to be pushed." So useful, I've found, for describing over-emoted performances.

[ahinton]

Well, from a composer's point of view (if I may), it sounds deeply weird. Music can't be measured like tennis skills or whatever, after all.

Quite - and all too many attempts to do so seem to me to sail uncomfortably close to the unwritten but all too prevalent notion that if something isn 't competitive or can be assessed and commented upon in copmpetitive terms, it's of limited value.

I think comparisons between creative artists often get in the way of appreciating what they've actually done

Indeed so; observing and commenting on commonalities between composers is one thing but seeking to make so-called "comparisons" between them as though on a scale from 1 to J S Bach or something is both pointless and misleading.

seeing Shostakovich through the prism of Beethoven or vice versa probably doesn't help to understand either. But maybe that's just me.

Oh, no it isn't!

[kea]

Well, from a composer's point of view (if I may), it sounds deeply weird. Music can't be measured like tennis skills or whatever, after all. I think comparisons between creative artists often get in the way of appreciating what they've actually done - seeing Shostakovich through the prism of Beethoven or vice versa probably doesn't help to understand either. But maybe that's just me.

Don't think it's just you. I find that even comparing two pieces by the same artist becomes problematic. Which is better, Beethoven's first piano sonata or his second? I prefer the second, to be sure, but I can't say it's "better" in any measurable way, or even the "equal" of the first sonata. They're not equal after all—they're in different keys and modes, lasting different amounts of time, making different impressions on the listener etc.

Anyway (to be slightly on topic) I listened to Shostakovich's Symphony No. 11 ("The Year 1905"), which I found a much more appealing piece the second time around (I'd only previously heard it in a live performance, where I thought it was over after the second movement and was surprised when it went on). I think it may have suffered by comparison with the other symphonies due to being a sequence of dramatic scenes rather than adhering to traditional forms, or simply due to being too long (I will admit that, if musical compositions had editors the same way novels do, and Shostakovich sent his symphony to me to edit it, I would have advised several changes)—I'm not sure exactly. However the ideas have a natural and unforced flow that creates a sort of linear structure (A -> B -> C -> D -> etc) which works reasonably well on its own, and the reliance on only a few motives (that I've criticised in the past) also helps to give the whole thing a greater coherence. Not sure how often I will be in the mood to be hectored by a full brass section and that poor snare drummer. But I think this is likely to be among my favourite of Shostakovich's symphonies—I certainly found it more engaging than 7, 8, 10 or 15 and especially 12. First listens for 2 and 3 and revisiting 4 are on the agenda, eventually.

[BBMmk2]

Anyone know anything about the Czecho-Slovak RSO(Bratislava). Just have their recording of Shosta's Symphony No.11(The Year `1905). Just want to know generally what their recordings are like?

[Serial_Apologist]

Anyone know anything about the Czecho-Slovak RSO(Bratislava). Just have their recording of Shosta's Symphony No.11(The Year `1905). Just want to know generally what their recordings are like?

I'm afraid not, but I notice you're being very politically correct today, BBM!