Schubert, Franz (1797-1828)

[Mandryka]

These elements are nearly always feeding off each other, especially in the slow movements, so characteristically with stormy middle sections: see the andante of Symphony No.4 (which begins with a paradisical beauty); or that of the 2nd where the 3rd variation is dynamically explosive in a movement of a playful, songful peace. These calmer elements often run far deeper than lyrical prettiness; hence the shock at their disruption.
See too the reverse effect in 2nd subjects of such 1st movements as D784, D959, D956 etc., where the calmer song (in many shades of mood and relations with the preceding ideas) arrives to soothe amid the often stormier energies or drama before and around it.

As with Schubert's frequent major/minor alterations, these contrasts are a vital part of his musical message; his "report on existence"...

Lots of things to think about here, thanks. I'm just reminding myself of D784/i and it clearly isn't "pretty and lyrical music"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

(splutter) But you can't just miss bits out willynilly because you think a piece is too long!

You aren’t really missing bits out. You’re just not playing the same thing twice.

[Bryn]

You aren’t really missing bits out. You’re just not playing the same thing twice.

As envisioned and notated by the composer. Still, what would he know?

[kernelbogey]

I heard him asked about not playing the repeat at a 'tallk' event. All he said was that it makes the piece too long.

I was merely reporting what Brendel said publicly - maybe a couple of years ago, I can't be sure exactly when - and that it was/is relevant to the thread.

He was, and no doubt is, profoundly deaf; he said it with perhaps the air of not wanting to enter a discussion, which might have been difficult to sustain.

[jayne lee wilson]

You aren’t really missing bits out. You’re just not playing the same thing twice.

There's the trick of it: you play the same thing differently; already changed in the light of its first occurrence, you may then employ variations in phrase, expression, dynamic and tempi.... but changed utterly it still is, even if the repeat is close to literal....

So the musical seasons recur, with their infinite universality of changes....
So the listening ear apprehends the recurrence....

Repeat To Listener:
"Don't switch off, switch more on"....

[kernelbogey]

Messge deleted by kernelbogey

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne, your mailbox is full.

Copy that.... and empty that....

[jayne lee wilson]

You aren’t really missing bits out. You’re just not playing the same thing twice.

There's the trick of it: you play the same thing differently; already changed in the light of its first occurrence, you may then employ variations in phrase, expression, dynamic and tempi.... but changed utterly it still is, even if the repeat is close to literal....

So the musical seasons recur, with their infinite universality of changes....
So the listening ear apprehends the recurrence....

Repeat To Listener:
"Don't switch off, switch more on"....

[RichardB]

You aren’t really missing bits out. You’re just not playing the same thing twice.

This is untrue in the case under discussion. By not playing the repeat you miss out the memorably disturbing first time bar, which as Brendel points out alters the expressive balance of the whole movement, to its detriment according to him, but seemingly not according to Schubert.

[smittims]

Until the arrival of LP it was not uncommon for musicians to 'miss bits out' (i.e. make cuts, not just avoid repeats) because they felt the piece was otherwise too long. Mengelberg, and even Beecham in Delius, were no exceptions. The present day belief that we must be faithful to the composer's intentions is more recent than it seems.

But I think it's always been understood among sensitive musicians that when you do play a repeat you do it differently; so it's perhaps disappointing to find recordings where not just the music but the actual take is repeated , as in the VPO/Levine 'Jupiter ' Symphony, where an off stage door-slam, at exactly the same moment three times in the third movement betrays that this was done.

[Mandryka]

But I think it's always been understood among sensitive musicians that when you do play a repeat you do it differently;

Well I’d very much appreciate it if someone could point out a recording of the G major quartet D884 which takes the first movement repeats and plays the music differently second time round.

Makes me think of those long Feldman pieces where you’re always saying to yourself, “Is this a repeat or not? It’s so long ago I can’t quite remember.” Schubert really is an extraordinary composer!

[Bryn]

Until the arrival of LP it was not uncommon for musicians to 'miss bits out' (i.e. make cuts, not just avoid repeats) because they felt the piece was otherwise too long. Mengelberg, and even Beecham in Delius, were no exceptions. The present day belief that we must be faithful to the composer's intentions is more recent than it seems.

But I think it's always been understood among sensitive musicians that when you do play a repeat you do it differently; so it's perhaps disappointing to find recordings where not just the music but the actual take is repeated , as in the VPO/Levine 'Jupiter ' Symphony, where an off stage door-slam, at exactly the same moment three times in the third movement betrays that this was done.

Then there are cases like the BBC Music Magazine cover disc of Mahler's 6th (Makerras) where, I am advised, the exposition repeat was performed and recorded in Bridgewater Hall but then excised for the CD.

[gurnemanz]

As I start to type something on here it sometimes crosses my mind that I may well be repeating a point I have already trotted out in a previous post, so I abort the contribution. In this case I found the comment I had in mind via the search function. It might be relevant here. In the Schubert D960 BaL thread a few years ago repeats were discussed. To repeat myself, this is what I wrote:

Re repeats: I've just been reading Brendel's "Music, Sense and Nonsense" where he quotes Edwin Fischer, who quotes Brahms (p149):
"When asked after a performance of the Second Symphony why the exposition was not repeated, Brahms replied: Formerly, when the piece was new to the audience, the repeat was necessary; today, the work is so well known that I can go on without it."
If Brahms thought like that, I suppose it is possible that Schubert might also have.

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?18063-BaL-16-12-17-Schubert-Piano-Sonata-no-21-in-B-flat-D960&p=651743#post651743

[RichardB]

If Brahms thought like that, I suppose it is possible that Schubert might also have

"I suppose it is possible" - there you have it! But, once more, the first movement of the B flat sonata isn't the same as Brahms 2, because it isn't just a repeat. Nor is the question of whether something is "too long" an objective one. Peter Gülke in his notes for Andreas Staier's recording quotes these lines from Hölderlin:

Sei du, Gesang, mein freundlich Asyl! sei du,
Beglückender! mit sorgender Liebe mir
Gepflegt, der Garten, wo ich, wandelnd
Unter den Blüten, den immerjungen,

In sichrer Einfalt wohne, wenn draußen mir
Mit ihren Wellen allen die mächtge Zeit,
Die Wandelbare, fern rauscht und die
Stillere Sonne mein Wirken fördert.

Ihr segnet gütig über den Sterblichen,
Ihr Himmelskräfte! jedem sein Eigentum,
O segnet meines auch, und daß zu
Frühe die Parze den Traum nicht ende.

... which sums up what for me is the poetic "meaning" of Schubert's movement (and not just this one) better than anything else I could think of.

[silvestrione]

"I suppose it is possible" - there you have it! But, once more, the first movement of the B flat sonata isn't the same as Brahms 2, because it isn't just a repeat. Nor is the question of whether something is "too long" an objective one. Peter Gülke in his notes for Andreas Staier's recording quotes these lines from Hölderlin:



... which sums up what for me is the poetic "meaning" of Schubert's movement (and not just this one) better than anything else I could think of.

Lovely lines...here's David Constantine's translation:

Let the poem be my place of asylum
And friendly garden, tended, for the joy it gives,
With careful love, and among the always
Renewing flowers let me walk and dwell

In a secure simplicity while outside
Wave on wave the colossal unsteady times
Are roaring at a distance and the
Quieter sun furthers the work I do.

High over mortal men the powers of heaven
Out of their kindness bless for each his own.
Oh bless likewise that which is mine
And may the Fates not end the dream too soon.

One thinks of Schumann's tribute, 'heavenly length'...