Schubert, Franz (1797-1828)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    #31
    With Mozart, if the sans-repeat No. 34 seems to look ahead to Beethoven 9, why are the repeats indicated in 36, and 38-41, where the exposition is far longer? Why omit it here (and in Nos. 31, 33 and 35) but then reinstate it? This surely indicates a very deliberate, and meaningful, creative choice.

    With Brahms, No.4 (i) makes as if to repeat the 1st movement expo, but then dives off into the most eventful of all his developments. This is only so meaningful in the context of his first three symphonies - in all of which, the repeat is indicated -and Brahms expects it to be observed.
    Similar manoeuvres can be observed in Beethoven Op 59/1 and Mahler's 4th. Mere unfamiliarity of material seems an impossibly shallow reason for composers of such complex masterpieces to mark such repeats; they were working with the background and foreground of classical forms, the expectation/contradiction of the form and its individual treatment in each work. If repeats are omitted arbitrarily, a rich layer of meaning is lost; the crucial statement/development contrast/conflict becomes diluted. (Mozart's Prague Symphony seems to invoke the recurring ritornello against the sonata-repeat in its 1st movement).

    *****

    It does seem strange that the concept of the varied repeat never became established in the Symphonic works of the classical or Romantic era (Franck's D Minor a rare exception). Especially given its very prevalence in concerto-sonata forms. There is little evidence for "composers gradually dropping" repeats in the 19th Century. In the 20thC the increasingly organic, developmentally eventful and complex 1st movement statements/structures evolved away from the repeat, as the statement/development contrast became more blurred; and symphonic architecture far more varied (e.g continuous or single-movement eg Nielsen 4, Sibelius 7). Sibelius 3-5 is the locus classicus for such such an evolution.

    With Mahler, the 1st and 6th Symphonies repeats are surely essential, given their inclusion, in his most classically-modelled sonata-forms; significant creative choices, surely. Yet some conductors have omitted them on (presumably) flimsy familiarity grounds.

    As in so many other ways, Bruckner is a case apart: only in his earliest extant symphony, the F Minor, are repeats called for in first and last movements.
    After which his signature three-theme sonata forms have very eventful and expansive expositions, whose constant, often contrapuntal thematic evolutions render them pretty developmental in themselves.

    So I think there is far more to the life of the sonata-repeat, the statement/development dichotomy with its contrasts and conflicts, than musical familiarity or unfamiliarity or the following of formal model.
    For me it is an artistic phenomenon on an almost metaphysical level, recurring cross-generically across film, literature, art and sculpture; part of the World's Turning, just as The Seasons recur with infinite variations each year.

    You may focus on the routine, or its disruption; on what is constant, or what is in flux; their ever-changing balance.
    Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 08-03-23, 04:08.

    Comment

    • RichardB
      Banned
      • Nov 2021
      • 2170

      #32
      Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
      The forum as such doesn’t have a view.
      But this particular case has been discussed before. For me it's clear: the first time bar contains essential material which affects the expressive balance of the whole movement, and so leaving out the repeat seems an arbitrary and aggressive act of editing, on the level of excluding any other passage on a whim. I would go so far as to say that anyone who misses the repeat doesn't really understand Schubert, if there were not the case of Alfred Brendel (whose playing I've never been very keen on anyway). But I'm not convinced by any "justification" for leaving it out. Other cases are less clear cut.

      Comment

      • smittims
        Full Member
        • Aug 2022
        • 4328

        #33
        I have to say I think it's insensitive to try to make a general rule about repeats, e.g. that they must always be observed. I think it depends on the occasion. Much music containing repeats was intended for playing by the musician alone or among a few friends.

        'The player at home may happily indulge in repeating the exposition of a Schubert sonata a dozen times for his private pleasure. In the concert hall he will be wise to consider that the perception of the audience as well as his own concentration should not be overtaxed.' (Alfred Brendel, 1978 'Musical thoughts and afterthoughts (Robson Books)).

        Where there are especially pleasant 'first-time ' bars I think a repeat is more desirable, but I don't feel cheated if I don't hear it: e.g. the first movements of Brahms 2nd symphony and Mendelssohn 4th. One repeat I do like to hear is the trio of Brahms' first symphony, as it involves the little 'German Band ' bar (108, or 8 before E if you have a Breitkopf score) . My only criticism of Stokowski's interpretations of Brahms' symphonies is that he always omitted this bar.

        A repeat hardly ever observed is a long one in the third movement of Berg's Chamber Concerto. It can be heard in the 1977 EMI recording directed by Sviatoslav Richter, who, it is said, held 100 rehearsals for it.

        Comment

        • RichardB
          Banned
          • Nov 2021
          • 2170

          #34
          Originally posted by smittims View Post
          In the concert hall he will be wise to consider that the perception of the audience as well as his own concentration should not be overtaxed.
          Further to what I said in my previous post: if that had been said by anyone other than a musician of Brendel's stature I would be inclined to dismiss it as lazy thinking! - especially since he seems to have brought the same attitude to the recording studio as to the concert hall.

          Comment

          • Mandryka
            Full Member
            • Feb 2021
            • 1560

            #35
            To the Editors: Alfred Brendel's elegant essay on the late sonatas of Schubert contains many insights, but in one respect he is off the mark. Although he


            Brendel cuts the repeat partly because he thinks the additional bars are bad taste:

            Another argument put forward by the exponents of the B flat sonata repeat emphasizes the amazing newness of the transitional bars; they add something to the piece that would otherwise remain unsaid and, supposedly, change the perception of its character. Even if there were not so many other factors—the generosity of the exposition, the literal recapitulation, the lyrical character of all the themes as well as of the following Andante, the balance of the movements—working against the advisability of this repeat, I would, for once, have to be at odds with Schubert’s judgment. Which elements in the course of the B flat sonata would justify the emergence of the transitional bars in question? Where are they announced? The transition is not to be compared to the irrational explosion in the Andante of the A major sonata: that has a psychological connection to the bleak melancholy of the movement’s beginning, as well as to the chromatic episodes of the preceding Allegro. By contrast, the transitional bars of the B flat sonata upset the magnificent coherence of his movement, whose motivic material seems quite unconnected to the new syncopated, jerky rhythm. Is the material or atmosphere of the transition taken up anywhere in the later movements? Should its irate dynamic outburst rob the development’s grand dramatic climax of its singularity? Most painful to me, however, is that the trill, which is so important to the understanding of the sonata’s main theme, is to be played fortissimo, while elsewhere in the movement remaining remote and mysterious. Schubert’s first draft still presents the trill, after a relatively brief exposition, in pianissimo.


            Comment

            • RichardB
              Banned
              • Nov 2021
              • 2170

              #36
              Originally posted by Mandryka View Post
              Which elements in the course of the B flat sonata would justify the emergence of the transitional bars in question?
              The fact that he wrote them. "Bad taste"? Suck it up, Alfred! If you can't handle what the composer wrote, don't play the piece.

              Comment

              • Mandryka
                Full Member
                • Feb 2021
                • 1560

                #37
                Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                Essential, as are all the Schubert exposition repeats that I know of....and in fact most symphonic repeats in most classical compositions. Interesting to know which repeats, if any, listeners here consider optional.... from the personal or artistic POV.....

                D960 isn't alone in Schubert of course, in taking on epic length with such a repeat. D894, D956, D887, D944.....
                Heavenly lengths are part of his vision, and it almost seems as if the longer the work, the more important the repeat feels for the balance of it. The key contrast in sonata is statement/development, and without the repeat this can seem underemphasised; especially where the recap is very different from the exposition itself (eg 3rd Symphony). The coda can also be very developmental. Or where you have a very short, blink-and-you'll-miss-it development (eg 2nd Symphony) the recap can feel like a repeated exposition! So it seems vital to me....

                (Have you heard, or seen, how long Tobia Koch's D960 (i) is? Out-Richtering Richter himself by several minutes...)....
                Koch’s is the longest first movement I know - longer even than Afanassiev’s first recording. Koch certainly makes it sound like an avant-garde piece piano music incomprehensible to most of the composer's contemporaries, and indeed incomprehensible to me now!


                Maybe this is the key question vis-à-vis Schubert: Was he writing pretty and lyrical music or was he writing disruptive music?

                Comment

                • kernelbogey
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 5803

                  #38
                  Originally posted by RichardB View Post
                  The fact that he wrote them. "Bad taste"? Suck it up, Alfred! If you can't handle what the composer wrote, don't play the piece.
                  I heard him asked about not playing the repeat at a 'tallk' event. All he said was that it makes the piece too long.

                  Comment

                  • jayne lee wilson
                    Banned
                    • Jul 2011
                    • 10711

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Mandryka View Post
                    Koch’s is the longest first movement I know - longer even than Afanassiev’s first recording. Koch certainly makes it sound like an avant-garde piece piano music incomprehensible to most of the composer's contemporaries, and indeed incomprehensible to me now!


                    Maybe this is the key question vis-à-vis Schubert: Was he writing pretty and lyrical music or was he writing disruptive music?
                    These elements are nearly always feeding off each other, especially in the slow movements, so characteristically with stormy middle sections: see the andante of Symphony No.4 (which begins with a paradisical beauty); or that of the 2nd where the 3rd variation is dynamically explosive in a movement of a playful, songful peace. These calmer elements often run far deeper than lyrical prettiness; hence the shock at their disruption.
                    See too the reverse effect in 2nd subjects of such 1st movements as D784, D959, D956 etc., where the calmer song (in many shades of mood and relations with the preceding ideas) arrives to soothe amid the often stormier energies or drama before and around it.

                    As with Schubert's frequent major/minor alterations, these contrasts are a vital part of his musical message; his "report on existence"...
                    Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 08-03-23, 17:54.

                    Comment

                    • silvestrione
                      Full Member
                      • Jan 2011
                      • 1722

                      #40
                      Originally posted by RichardB View Post
                      The fact that he wrote them. "Bad taste"? Suck it up, Alfred! If you can't handle what the composer wrote, don't play the piece.
                      We have discussed this one at length before. I certainly don't think it's that clear cut. I agree with Brendel, who makes out a thoughtful, careful case, and note that that great Schubertian Schnabel didn't play them. It's just too simple to say it's like cuts, to the middle of a movement, for example. It's possible to argue that Schubert got that one wrong, that it's a miscalculation, or a later thought not quite in the spirit of the music, or in line with its character.

                      I cannot listen anymore to Richter in B Flat Sonata or the G Major, where his very long repeats (tempo) are exact repetitions of the first playing. I rather enjoyed Koch in D 959, though.

                      Comment

                      • RichardB
                        Banned
                        • Nov 2021
                        • 2170

                        #41
                        Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
                        I heard him asked about not playing the repeat at a 'tallk' event. All he said was that it makes the piece too long.
                        (splutter) But you can't just miss bits out willynilly because you think a piece is too long!

                        Comment

                        • silvestrione
                          Full Member
                          • Jan 2011
                          • 1722

                          #42
                          Originally posted by RichardB View Post
                          (splutter) But you can't just miss bits out willynilly because you think a piece is too long!
                          But it's NOT willynilly, is it? It's carefully reasoned. See post 35 above.

                          Comment

                          • RichardB
                            Banned
                            • Nov 2021
                            • 2170

                            #43
                            Originally posted by silvestrione View Post
                            But it's NOT willynilly, is it? It's carefully reasoned.
                            As far as I'm concerned it is willynilly. Brendel says: "the transitional bars of the B flat sonata upset the magnificent coherence of his movement, whose motivic material seems quite unconnected to the new syncopated, jerky rhythm. Is the material or atmosphere of the transition taken up anywhere in the later movements? Should its irate dynamic outburst rob the development’s grand dramatic climax of its singularity?" To which my answer is: you assume that Schubert was after "magnificent coherence" and blew it with this passage, but it you were to assume instead that the composer knew what he was after and how to achieve it, you might have to throw out your idea of "magnificent coherence" and replace it with something else. If Schubert doesn't behave the way you want him to, maybe your view of the music is too limited.

                            Comment

                            • Mandryka
                              Full Member
                              • Feb 2021
                              • 1560

                              #44
                              I think this comment from Brendel gives food for thought -- I don't know if he's just got double standards:

                              The transition is not to be compared to the irrational explosion in the Andante of the A major sonata: that has a psychological connection to the bleak melancholy of the movement’s beginning,

                              Lonquich says without elaboration that the effect of the trill is uncanny, in Freud's sense. The Freudian uncanny is in its turn related to repressed desires threatening to return.

                              Comment

                              • Mandryka
                                Full Member
                                • Feb 2021
                                • 1560

                                #45
                                Originally posted by silvestrione View Post
                                We have discussed this one at length before. I certainly don't think it's that clear cut. I agree with Brendel, who makes out a thoughtful, careful case, and note that that great Schubertian Schnabel didn't play them. It's just too simple to say it's like cuts, to the middle of a movement, for example. It's possible to argue that Schubert got that one wrong, that it's a miscalculation, or a later thought not quite in the spirit of the music, or in line with its character.

                                I cannot listen anymore to Richter in B Flat Sonata or the G Major, where his very long repeats (tempo) are exact repetitions of the first playing. I rather enjoyed Koch in D 959, though.
                                Can you enjoy the G major quartet, the 15th, with repeats? I find that really hard actually, much harder than D960. And I guess many people have a problem with the 9th symphony, but I have the perfect antidote for that -- Bruno Maderna's performance (which isn't on youtube unfortunately, as far as I can see.)

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X