Stephen Sondheim (1930 - 2021)

[Katzelmacher]

I would say Jerome Kern - Beethoven (created the modern musical)

Gershwin - Mozart (music poured out of them)

Sondheim - Wagner (unparalleled emotional depth )

But where does that leave Lloyd Webber ?

Good one.

One definition of a genius is someone who leaves their chosen field utterly changed from the way they found it. How far did SS change the musical, though? Reactionary pieces like those of AL-W continue to hold the stage and Sondheim didn’t really have any ‘heirs’, did he?

Tom Sutcliffe, in a thoroughly means-spirited Guardian obit, makes the point that most of Sondheim’s shows were not financially rewarding - or took many years to become so (Follies was famously a smash-hit with critics and audiences, yet it failed to recoup its initial investment). But that’s the way of things when you work in the toughest theatrical environment in the world (Broadway). It’s a bit of a miracle that he managed to get things like Company put on in the first place.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Good one.

One definition of a genius is someone who leaves their chosen field utterly changed from the way they found it. How far did SS change the musical, though? Reactionary pieces like those of AL-W continue to hold the stage and Sondheim didn’t really have any ‘heirs’, did he?

Tom Sutcliffe, in a thoroughly means-spirited Guardian obit, makes the point that most of Sondheim’s shows were not financially rewarding - or took many years to become so (Follies was famously a smash-hit with critics and audiences, yet it failed to recoup its initial investment). But that’s the way of things when you work in the toughest theatrical environment in the world (Broadway). It’s a bit of a miracle that he managed to get things like Company put on in the first place.

Let’s face it Sondheim is caviar to the general . Jukebox musicals now crowd out the West End. But West End actors , singers, M.D’s , overworked pit musos LOVE Sondheim . He pushes them. He pushes the audience too. The problem with Follies (my favourite - a work of genius ) was neatly summed up by somebody - “ Joe Schmo doesn’t pay $200 dollars , travel to Broadway , to be told that he and his wife are fundamentally schmucks .”

He totally changed the musical. But then so did Rodgers and Hammerstein with Oklahoma , and so did Kern with Showboat.

[jayne lee wilson]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/28/rip-stephen-sondheim-revolutionary-in-world-of-musical-theatre

[cloughie]

Having heard through the airwaves playing his songs over the weekend two things struck me.
1 That his lyrics were better than his tunes.
2 Maybe some of the impact of his music is lost by being delivered by actors who can sing a bit rather than by good singers.
On reflection maybe genius is over-praise, but his output is certainly different from most of his contemporaries.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Having heard through the airwaves playing his songs over the weekend two things struck me.
1 That his lyrics were better than his tunes.
2 Maybe some of the impact of his music is lost by being delivered by actors who can sing a bit rather than by good singers.
On reflection maybe genius is over-praise, but his output is certainly different from most of his contemporaries.

More than any other Broadway composer his songs don’t work so well being extracted from their theatrical context . A classic example is Send In The Clowns . In the musical there’s a short scene between the penultimate and last verse . Without that the two verses don’t relate. Barbra Streisand spotted that and got a few words changed for her record . Some of the cast albums e,g, the later Broadway version of Merrily We Roll Along include all the music cues. It’s only by so doing that you can see how Sondheim develops character and plot through . I agree about the actor / singer thing but the point is Broadway and the West End are full of people who can do both ( and quite a few can dance as well). .

At the risk of overdoing it there are similar problems with Wagner “extracts”

[kernelbogey]

Having heard a few tracks played in tribute - and most notably 'Sorry-grateful' from 'Company' on Breakfast this morning - I start to get the idea, and what Sondheimistas are on about.

I stand by my reference above (#8) to 'shouty' performance styles, for which I'd prepared Forum readers by declaring a prejudice against musicals. I don't judge them, any more than I judge, say, Stockhausen . They just are what they are.

But my experience of hearing extracts from musicals is that there is a singing style unique to American musicals, AFAIK, in which the voice moves from the lyrical, melodic line, to a quasi-speech rhythm and line, back and forth. I personally don't like this. It was not a part of the Sorry-grateful extract, so I am not attributing it to Sondheim's works, although it did appear in the extract from Gypsy I referred to above.

I may give something of Sondheim's a try - by which I mean listening to a whole show. Any suggestions?

[cloughie]

More than any other Broadway composer his songs don’t work so well being extracted from their theatrical context . A classic example is Send In The Clowns . In the musical there’s a short scene between the penultimate and last verse . Without that the two verses don’t relate. Barbra Streisand spotted that and got a few words changed for her record . Some of the cast albums e,g, the later Broadway version of Merrily We Roll Along include all the music cues. It’s only by so doing that you can see how Sondheim develops character and plot through . I agree about the actor / singer thing but the point is Broadway and the West End are full of people who can do both ( and quite a few can dance as well). .


At the risk of overdoing it there are similar problems with Wagner “extracts”

There are some who are very good at both but worst scenario is singers who think they can act and actors who have limited singing abilities. I’m also not a fan of actors semi-speaking/singing style. Amongst the ‘Send in the clowns’ covers I came across Natalie Dessay’s recording with the Paris Mozart Orchestra - I do rather like it.

[gurnemanz]

Having heard a few tracks played in tribute - and most notably 'Sorry-grateful' from 'Company' on Breakfast this morning - I start to get the idea, and what Sondheimistas are on about.

I stand by my reference above (#8) to 'shouty' performance styles, for which I'd prepared Forum readers by declaring a prejudice against musicals. I don't judge them, any more than I judge, say, Stockhausen . They just are what they are.

But my experience of hearing extracts from musicals is that there is a singing style unique to American musicals, AFAIK, in which the voice moves from the lyrical, melodic line, to a quasi-speech rhythm and line, back and forth. I personally don't like this. It was not a part of the Sorry-grateful extract, so I am not attributing it to Sondheim's works, although it did appear in the extract from Gypsy I referred to above.

I may give something of Sondheim's a try - by which I mean listening to a whole show. Any suggestions?

I think I'm of a similar persuasion. I am a great song fan - from madrigals, Lieder and mélodies and up to singer-songwriters of our time, Dylan, Joni Mitchell and others. I have countless recordings from the great jazz singers doing the "American songbook" (many originally in musicals) - Gershwin, Porter, Rodgers, Kern, Berlin, Arlen etc. Compared to opera, concerts, recitals and straight theatre, we have never been keen or frequent attenders at musicals, so I am not really qualified to comment here. My attendance has probably been no more than a dozen over the decades, starting with Oliver and My fair Lady as a teenager in the 60s on family outings. Others I have attended and enjoyed are West Side Story, Candide (is it a musical?), Carousel, Tommy, Kiss Me Kate, Les Misérables, Book of Mormon, The Producers. No Lloyd Webber in there and only one Sondheim - Follies at the NT a few years ago at my wife's instigation, which had ecstatic reviews but turned out to be a good show but not really my style.

Someone above described Sondheim as the greatest songwriter since Schubert. It crossed my mind, huge song fan that I am, as mentioned, that I could only name one song by him - the omnipresent (overly so for me) Send in the Clowns. I'm sure the omission is mine and should probably try harder.

[french frank]

Someone above described Sondheim as the greatest songwriter since Schubert.

That can't be true. The greatest songwriter since Schubert is Paul McCartney

I know what the kernel means, but I think it may be just certain songs/characters: "A hundred-and-one pounds a fun", "Anything you can do I can do better", " I just blew in from the windy city" &c.

[gurnemanz]

PS Re musicals I have seen (not many), I suddenly remembered Conor McPherson’s brilliant Girl from the North Country, based on Dylan songs and couldn't resist adding it.

[MickyD]

At the photocopy shop.

Reminds me of the old joke: "Have you heard the new Lloyd Webber musical?"
"Probably".

[MickyD]

Having heard a few tracks played in tribute - and most notably 'Sorry-grateful' from 'Company' on Breakfast this morning - I start to get the idea, and what Sondheimistas are on about.

I stand by my reference above (#8) to 'shouty' performance styles, for which I'd prepared Forum readers by declaring a prejudice against musicals. I don't judge them, any more than I judge, say, Stockhausen . They just are what they are.

But my experience of hearing extracts from musicals is that there is a singing style unique to American musicals, AFAIK, in which the voice moves from the lyrical, melodic line, to a quasi-speech rhythm and line, back and forth. I personally don't like this. It was not a part of the Sorry-grateful extract, so I am not attributing it to Sondheim's works, although it did appear in the extract from Gypsy I referred to above.

I may give something of Sondheim's a try - by which I mean listening to a whole show. Any suggestions?

If you have time, this is an excellent performance of "Sunday in the Park with George" on YouTube. Brings back happy memories of seeing it originally at the National Theatre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_wq9tnuoi8&t=507s

[Ein Heldenleben]

Having heard a few tracks played in tribute - and most notably 'Sorry-grateful' from 'Company' on Breakfast this morning - I start to get the idea, and what Sondheimistas are on about.

I stand by my reference above (#8) to 'shouty' performance styles, for which I'd prepared Forum readers by declaring a prejudice against musicals. I don't judge them, any more than I judge, say, Stockhausen . They just are what they are.

But my experience of hearing extracts from musicals is that there is a singing style unique to American musicals, AFAIK, in which the voice moves from the lyrical, melodic line, to a quasi-speech rhythm and line, back and forth. I personally don't like this. It was not a part of the Sorry-grateful extract, so I am not attributing it to Sondheim's works, although it did appear in the extract from Gypsy I referred to above.

I may give something of Sondheim's a try - by which I mean listening to a whole show. Any suggestions?

Broadway Original Cast recording of Company - one of the very best original cast recordings
There’s also a Pennebaker documentary on the recording of this session on YouTube which is absolutely fascinating.

There’s also a newer Ethel Barrymore theatre production with the cast playing the instruments (search Raoul Esparza) which is tremendous on YouTube
I watched it for the fourth time last night as part what became a Sondheim tribute weekend…


Follies Live with New York Phil . But has hysterically over the top audience reaction (which would have been even more so had I been there ) . The greatest Sondheim cast ever assembled IMHO. There’s also a very good BBC a doc on it kicking around.

Merrliy We Roll Along - either Broadway Original or more recent revival . You can skip some of the reprises.

Sunday In The Park With George . Broadway original cast or London 2006
As Micky D points out the original production is also on YouTube though not very high qual.but top notch performances from Mandy Patinkin and Bernadette Peters

Enjoy!

nn

[MickyD]

The YouTube performance I posted is not the original production of 'George', but a much newer one given in Paris and broadcast on the Mezzo channel. The cast is very good and of course the video and sound quality is much better. Well worth watching.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The YouTube performance I posted is not the original production of 'George', but a much newer one given in Paris and broadcast on the Mezzo channel. The cast is very good and of course the video and sound quality is much better. Well worth watching.

Thanks for the tipoff