Wagner, Richard (1813 - 1883)

[RichardB]

I don't know if anyone reads Robert Donington's 'Wagner's Ring and its Symbols' nowadays. It's a Jungian analysis of Wagner's work which some may find enlightening and others hard going, but he does have a useful appendix of motives.

I've found it quite valuable over the years. More recently, I was looking at Martin Geck's Wagner biography (incorporating some insightful writing about his work) a few weeks ago and thought to myself if one only has one book about Wagner, this would be a good contender. Of course I have somewhat more than one.

[smittims]

Thanks, gurnemanz, and richard too for explaining why Donington is important and why I've never found him useful. I also had to reflect that I've never had even one book on Wagner, except for the introductory volume of Sabor's series.

It' quite simply that I have so little interest in Wagner's dramatic and philosophical ideas. I know this sounds naive but I really just like listening to the music. Yes, I know that there are wonderfully profound moments in his libretti : I was thinking only yesterday of Sieglinde's remark to Siegmund when he proposes to leave to avoid bringing unhappiness into her home:

'You cannot bring misfortune
Where misfortune dwells already'.

I've never read Schopenhauer nor, I suppose will I do so now. I don't think anyone would think, talk or write about Wagner today were it not for the power and beauty of his music. We don't think much about Brahms' philosophical ideas, but enjoy his music. So it is with Wagner and me.

[RichardB]

I've never read Schopenhauer nor, I suppose will I do so now. I don't think anyone would think, talk or write about Wagner today were it not for the power and beauty of his music. We don't think much about Brahms' philosophical ideas, but enjoy his music. So it is with Wagner and me.

But Wagner was strongly influenced by philosophical ideas in a way that Brahms wasn't, as Bryan Magee points out in his excellent Wagner and Philosophy book, which will probably tel you all you really need to know about Schopenhauer.

[Joseph K]

But Wagner was strongly influenced by philosophical ideas in a way that Brahms wasn't, as Bryan Magee points out in his excellent Wagner and Philosophy book, which will probably tel you all you really need to know about Schopenhauer.

That's a good book.

[silvestrione]

Over the years I have made frequent reference in various threads on here to how influential Donington has been on my understanding of the Ring and indeed the workings of the human psyche in general:

Eg, to quote myself: "About 30 years ago when our daughter was 2, the BBC showed the Ring Cycle on the telly (those were the days). She was riveted by Rheingold, I remember (golden apples, giants, a rainbow bridge etc). I'd recently been reading Robert Donington's Jungian "Wagner's Ring and its Symbols" and at the time, pseud that I no doubt was, I convinced myself that she was somehow "getting" it at the deep unconscious level of psychological archetypes." http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...033#post289033

She is now 41 and more of a ballet than an opera freak, such that she is subscribed to ROH priority booking, which we also take advantage of. We booked the ROH Ring through her in 2018 and my wife and I were surprised when she announced that she and her partner would join us. Neither had ever really listened to Wagner much but they thought it would be a cultural experience not to be missed. We duly went all together and had a great time. I couldn't help telling her about that TV broadcast but having been so young at the time she of course had no memory of it - conscious, that is.

Ah, an intriguing anecdote, thanks! Yes, Donnington was formative for me, both with Wagner and beyond, back in the day (probably 1970s). I still have the handsome Faber paperback!

[teamsaint]

Only last night did I finish the second act of Die Walkuere.

Finished Siegfried last night. Been an excellent listening project. Next step after completing the ring is to watch a production or two, or at least bits of.

( There seem to be some odd breaks on the CDs, which don't look to be enforced by time limits, or anything obvious in the libretto. Maybe they correspond to the original LPs ?)

[Joseph K]

Finished Die Walkuere just now. Probably my favourite act out of The Ring.

[teamsaint]

Finished Die Walkuere just now. Probably my favourite act out of The Ring.

Completed the cycle tonight, covering the third and fourth CDs of Gotterdammerung today. Nice way to use part of a Thursday afternoon off work

I have learned an awful lot in the last couple of weeks, and doubtless missed a lot also. It has been some experience, and undoubtedly a great jump off point. I’m ready for more , not sure what or how, very soon.
I am very grateful indeed for the tip about the Sabor books, JK, so many thanks.

[Maclintick]

I am very grateful indeed for the tip about the Sabor books, JK, so many thanks.

Ditto. Thanks. JK. The Sabor books seem to be out-of-stock in The Hive & Waterstones (my go-tos) so I'll just have to wait. Been on a bit of a Wagnerfest over Easter -- impressed with Solti Parsifal, Kollo & Frick a distinctive and apposite vocal pairing, and Christa Ludwig surely one of the most lacerating Kundrys on record. Currently bingeing on Solti & Karajan's versions of the Ring, the former on LP & its 1997 CD incarnation, the latter on the 1998 Eloquence transfer. Tending towards Solti overall, as I can't escape the feeling that HvK was more interested in orchestral marvels than vocal characterisations -- sort of a pseudo-Hitchcockian view that "singers are cattle", to misquote the great auteur. The 1997 Decca transfers are faithful to the original LP incarnations, but the DG Eloquence versions have a brittle edge which I don't associate with contemporaneous DG offerings from Jesus-Christus Kirche of this vintage.

[Joseph K]

You're welcome, Maclintick. Solti and Karajan are the versions of The Ring I have. I listened to the first two of the cycle in Karajan's since I hadn't listened to it since buying it, but have not yet got round to listening to Siegfried or Goetterdaemmerung. ... Yes, it's a shame about those books being out of print, kudos to teamsaint for hunting down copies...

[teamsaint]

Ditto. Thanks. JK. The Sabor books seem to be out-of-stock in The Hive & Waterstones (my go-tos) so I'll just have to wait. Been on a bit of a Wagnerfest over Easter -- impressed with Solti Parsifal, Kollo & Frick a distinctive and apposite vocal pairing, and Christa Ludwig surely one of the most lacerating Kundrys on record. Currently bingeing on Solti & Karajan's versions of the Ring, the former on LP & its 1997 CD incarnation, the latter on the 1998 Eloquence transfer. Tending towards Solti overall, as I can't escape the feeling that HvK was more interested in orchestral marvels than vocal characterisations -- sort of a pseudo-Hitchkockian view that "singers are cattle", to misquote the great auteur. The 1997 Decca transfers are faithful to the original LP incarnations, but the DG Eloquence versions have a brittle edge which I don't associate with contemporaneous DG offerings from Jesus-Christus Kirche of this vintage.

I had to buy the books used, Supermac, managed to buy them all in good condition for under£40 all told.
I would be surprised if Phaidon reprint them any time soon, but who knows ? ( Would love the company I work for to acquire the rights !)
Rheingold is easily the most expensive of the set at around £20 but if you want to dabble, the others can all be had for a fiver or so.
Parsifal is next in line for me for a listen.

[gurnemanz]

Curiosity corner: When I look at the thread title I cant help seeing the number 13. His name has thirteen letters and he was born in 1813, which adds up to thirteen. He died on February 13. His exile from Germany lasted thirteen years, as did his marriage to Cosima. He completed thirteen stage works and died thirteen months after finishing Parsifal.

[smittims]

I'm sure Arnold Schoenberg would have noticed this, though I've not come across his mentioning it; he had, of course his own relationship with the number.

Not being superstitious, I can't see this as anything but a coincidence, though,as you point out, a truly remarkable one. And Wagner can hardly be said to have been an 'unlucky' man; quite the contrary, whe one considers the many good things which seem to have fallen into his lap without his extending much effort.

[Maclintick]

As is the case with many an inexhaustible masterpiece, I've reached the conclusion that you need at least Solti and Karajan to get anywhere near full appreciation of the marvel that is The Ring, with Solti/Culshaw edging it in the dramatic stakes, but HvK winning in purely musical terms with a concert perspective rather than an overly stagey one, if that makes sense. Culshaw. of course, wrote extensively on the production aesthetics of the Decca set, prioritising drama and taking Wagner's precise instructions literally, which pays dividends in scenes such as the ugly subterranean shenanigans involving Mime, Siegfried and Fafner, whereas Karajan's singers and the BPO often outshine their Viennese counterparts in tenderly ecstatic passages. The Karajan set is very light on any of Wagner's meticulous demands for sound effects, as if HvK thinks they're not especially "refained" e.g. Donner's damp squib of a hammer-blow at the Rainbow Bridge, where Solti/Culshaw, especially on LP, threaten to blow the cones from the speakers.

Next, when time allows, I'm going to have a crack at the 66/67 live Bayreuth/Böhm.

[bluestateprommer]

Zurich Opera will be making its new Ring cycle available for streaming soon:

https://www.opernhaus.ch/en/2324/ring-fuer-alle/

One review, generally positive:

https://apnews.com/article/wagner-ring-cycle-zurich-noseda-homoki-381e27dae2d7a57b854c42e63d4dc804