Mozart's Masses

[Mario]

Well, I hope others are enjoying this thread as much as I am. What a fount of information this forum is!

So, Ms Wilson, please slow down! I’m not in your league, on so many different levels (although I’m happy to engage with you on my God, good ‘ol LvB – but that’s for another time).

I do know WMA’s SQn, although maybe not as well as I should do, but let’s take in a few more Masses first, starting with your suggestion of K364 (erm, would I be strung up if I said initial impressions of K317 are hardly that of a profound creation, or is it too early?).

FF, my CD 116 has

Laut verkünde unsre Freude K623 and Dir seel des Weltalls o Sonne K429. The tenors are Christoph Prégardien and Helmut Wildhaber with the basses Gottfried Hornik and Peter Schneyder. Sorry ff, but neither Werner Krenn nor Kurt Equiluz are mentioned on this CD.

Bryn earlier mentioned Brilliant’s penchant for duplicating or missing CDs in boxed sets – boy is he right! I had two copies of one CD and a missing one but Brilliant soon made that good.

Mario

[french frank]

FF, my CD 116 has

Laut verkünde unsre Freude K623 and Dir seel des Weltalls o Sonne K429. The tenors are Christoph Prégardien and Helmut Wildhaber with the basses Gottfried Hornik and Peter Schneyder. Sorry ff, but neither Werner Krenn nor Kurt Equiluz are mentioned on this CD.

We do seem to be getting off the Masses, but you've had some tips from JLW to be getting on with, so just to clarify: Yes, we seem to have different versions on CD 116 as mine has Kurt Equiluz, Rudolf Resch and baritone Leo Heppe, with the choir and orchestra of the Vienna Volksoper/ P Maag. On mine Dir danken wir die Freude is part of the cantata Dir, Seele des Weltalls which is a single track but in fact starts with a chorus and follows with the treble solo (sung by Franz Ellmer). Werner Krenn is on my other disc, Decca with the LSO and Kertész. But I only mentioned this in passing as I'm not keen on post-medieval/Renaissance masses in general, though make an exception for K626.

As for K364, I looked up Mozart's letters on this work but it isn't mentioned, so I was interested in Richard Wigmore's comments in his Gramophone review: "… frustratingly, we know nothing about its origins. Apart from a sketch for the first-movement cadenza, the autograph has disappeared. Neither Mozart nor any of his contemporaries ever mentioned the work."

[jayne lee wilson]

That's a pretty good survey of K364 from RW, to which I would add the Kuijken recording.....

To reassure Mario, I mentioned the K364 Sinfonia Concertante simply in the context of Mozart's relationship with the viola....what a marvellously lovable piece it is.

"Profound" is a difficult word and a difficult concept. The K317 isn't on the same level in this respect as say the K516 G Minor Quintet, but it is still a wonderful thing to listen to....Mozart runs the gamut, often in the same work, from devastating tragedy to a lighthearted dance of joy...(cf 516 again)..
Or: "the heart dances but not for joy" . the Mozartian Einstein on the last Piano Concerto...

Mendelssohn has sometimes been described as "lacking profundity", but this judgement seems to me fundamentally misconceived...
Enjoy the music and don't worry about how "deep" its "depths" are....

[Bryn]

That's a pretty good survey from RW, to which I would add the Kuijken recording.....

To reassure Mario, I mentioned the K364 Sinfonia Concertante simply in the context of Mozart's relationship with the viola....what a marvellously lovable piece it is.

His only surviving sinfonia concertante of sound provenance. A delightful work, indeed.

[LeMartinPecheur]

If I remember correctly, he played the viola as well as the violin, and was said to have preferred it.

He is recorded as playing viola in the first performance of his Kegelstatt trio K498 and may well have played it in quartets with Haydn, Vanhal and Dittersdorf and in his own late quintets. There aren't many written records of this activity apparently.

[Mario]

Ok, so if I may pose the question, for that’s all it was in my message 12, and NOT a criticism, do we know of any reason why Mozart would not include violas? I ask again – at the time, were these not standard issue, so to speak? It seems strange to exclude what in the string family is an important contributor for filling in harmony, no?

Mario

[rauschwerk]

Ok, so if I may pose the question, for that’s all it was in my message 12, and NOT a criticism, do we know of any reason why Mozart would not include violas? I ask again – at the time, were these not standard issue, so to speak? It seems strange to exclude what in the string family is an important contributor for filling in harmony, no?

Mario

I think you will find that in these scores that was the job of the organ.

[Pulcinella]

Ok, so if I may pose the question, for that’s all it was in my message 12, and NOT a criticism, do we know of any reason why Mozart would not include violas? I ask again – at the time, were these not standard issue, so to speak? It seems strange to exclude what in the string family is an important contributor for filling in harmony, no?

Mario

You have presumably seen this, in the Wiki entry on the mass.

The work is scored for SATB soloists and chorus, 2 violins, "Bassi", 2 oboes, 2 horns, 2 trumpets, timpani, 3 trombones (which reinforce the alto, tenor and bass choral parts) and organ. In most modern performances several players are used for some of the orchestral parts. Notable is the lack of violas, typical of music written for Salzburg, and the vague name "basses" for the stave shared by organ, bassoon (specified only in the Credo), cello and double bass. Among the original parts is one for "violone", a slippery term sometimes implying a 16' bass but also used for the 8' bass violin.

The solo vocal parts would originally have been sung by members of the choir, and are notated on the same staves as the choral parts in Mozart's autograph score.

The horn parts appear on separate sheets at the end of the autograph score and it is unclear whether they were a later addition by Mozart, although they were composed by him before the end of 1779. The horn parts became separated from the main score, and were omitted from the 1802 edition by Breitkopf & Härtel. The horn parts are sometimes considered as optional.

This begs a wider question: Why is it typical of music written for Salzburg (so not just this mass) to have no violas?

[french frank]

This begs a wider question: Why is it typical of music written for Salzburg (so not just this mass) to have no violas?

There's an article by Cliff Eisen in Early Music on Mozart's Salzburg Orchestras which lists the court musicians in 1743, 1756 and 1769, and there were no viola players at all. In 1780 there were two. So I suppose Mozart composed for the musicians who were available at the time. There were similar gaps in some years for flutes and trombones.

[Mario]

You have presumably seen this, in the Wiki entry on the mass.



This begs a wider question: Why is it typical of music written for Salzburg (so not just this mass) to have no violas?

Actually P, I hadn’t! In wish I did now, as it is pretty self-explanatory isn’t it?

I had downloaded the score from IMSLP (I’m a weak Grade 5 Music Theory currently), and noticed immediately the missing violas. I assumed somehow that the score was incomplete, or it was a rogue version.

FF’s pointer to Cliff Eisen seems to have answered that question.

I’m fed up with K317 now – any suggestions for the next Mass please?

Mario