Schoenberg, Arnold (1874-1951)

[ahinton]

Wondering if Gurrelieder would also appeal to the hypothetical granny

Hypothetically, perhaps. That said, Gurrelieder uses a considerably larger orchestra than Pelleas (whose orchestra is hardly small), but I've not noticed "murky and overloaded orchestration" there either; OK, much of it was orchestrated some time after its original composition, by which time, as S_A points out, Schönberg had absorbed much more from Mahler, not least in chamber music textures in a large orchestral context but, like Busoni as well as Mahler and Strauss, Schönberg was a distinguished conductor, so I'd very much have liked to hear his own performances of those two works...

[Richard Barrett]

My take on the issue is that after Pelleas Schoenberg started absorbing much more from Mahler in this matter of orchestral pallette, as well as in other areas of expression and idiom - as I think did Zemlinsky, btw.

I would agree with that. I find it one of Schoenberg's least convincing scores. It (again like the Zemlinsky) sprawls horizontally as well as vertically, in contrast to most of Schoenberg's music which even at this early stage shows a strong tendency towards concision.

[Barbirollians]

I would agree with that. I find it one of Schoenberg's least convincing scores. It (again like the Zemlinsky) sprawls horizontally as well as vertically, in contrast to most of Schoenberg's music which even at this early stage shows a strong tendency towards concision.

Even in Karajan’s recording where the orchestration has never struck me as murky ?

[BBMmk2]

Even in Karajan’s recording where the orchestration has never struck me as murky ?

Abbado's recording on DVD is slightly better than HvKs.

[Conchis]

Wondering if Gurrelieder would also appeal to the hypothetical granny

My Gran would ask for Gurrelieder as a sort of 'aural nightcap' before retiring, having had an early evening of Pelleas....and ....Nacht. But she'd pull the plug out of the socket if she ever caught me playing any of that 'horrible' Moses Und Aron or the String Quartets. When i tried to explain that they were the work of the same bloke, she'd respond 'Well, now he's just trying to be clever!'

Likewise, Coltrane's Giant Step and Miles' Kind Of Blue were very popular with her; but she threatened to cut me out of her will when she caught me playing Ascenion and Live Evil.



:)

[Barbirollians]

My Gran would ask for Gurrelieder as a sort of 'aural nightcap' before retiring, having had an early evening of Pelleas....and ....Nacht. But she'd pull the plug out of the socket if she ever caught me playing any of that 'horrible' Moses Und Aron or the String Quartets. When i tried to explain that they were the work of the same bloke, she'd respond 'Well, now he's just trying to be clever!'

Likewise, Coltrane's Giant Step and Miles' Kind Of Blue were very popular with her; but she threatened to cut me out of her will when she caught me playing Ascenion and Live Evil.



:)

Sensible woman

[Conchis]

Even in Karajan’s recording where the orchestration has never struck me as murky ?

Some people (I don't necessarily agree with them) think HvK smooths over the rought edges of Schoenberg's scores, turning them into 'Karajan puree' if not actual 'Karajan soup.'

[Serial_Apologist]

Some people (I don't necessarily agree with them) think HvK smooths over the rought edges of Schoenberg's scores, turning them into 'Karajan puree' if not actual 'Karajan soup.'

If Karajan had conducted Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance marches, thaen they would have become "Brown Windsor Soup", presumably.

[ahinton]

If Karajan had conducted Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance marches, thaen they would have become "Brown Windsor Soup", presumably.

If so, we can all be grateful that he didn't...

[Barbirollians]

Have been listening to Barbirolli's late 1960s account of Pelleas and Melisande with the Philharmonia this afternoon and again the orchestration seems pretty transparent and lacking in murkiness to me . I had to look it up but I was reminded of what the late Michael Oliver wrote about P and M in Gramophone. Though he was referring to the HVK recording . To paraphrase he said the point was not that Schoenberg failed in his attempt to develop further the worlds of Wagner and Richard Strauss's tone poems but that he came so close to succeeding and in doing so " forged many of the tools that he would need later" .

The Barbirolli account goes for the full blooded approach with some of Sir John's singalong thrown in ! .

[Serial_Apologist]

Have been listening to Barbirolli's late 1960s account of Pelleas and Melisande with the Philharmonia this afternoon and again the orchestration seems pretty transparent and lacking in murkiness to me . I had to look it up but I was reminded of what the late Michael Oliver wrote about P and M in Gramophone. Though he was referring to the HVK recording . To paraphrase he said the point was not that Schoenberg failed in his attempt to develop further the worlds of Wagner and Richard Strauss's tone poems but that he came so close to succeeding and in doing so " forged many of the tools that he would need later" .

The Barbirolli account goes for the full blooded approach with some of Sir John's singalong thrown in ! .

I'd have to hear the Barbirolli - who I think was generally good at bringing out orchestral clarity; but I'd tend to agree with Oliver, with further elucidation along the lines suggested above by Richard Barrett and ahinton that in its various aspects Pelleas proved a vital part of Schoenberg's "learning curve". Oddly enough I have never had the same problem with the orchestration of "Gurrelieder", notwithstanding the even larger forces in use, as ahinton has indicated. It doesn't hold my attention - but that's undoubtedly my problem!

[Richard Barrett]

Oddly enough I have never had the same problem with the orchestration of "Gurrelieder", notwithstanding the even larger forces in use

It's not principally about the number of instruments involved, but how they're related to one another in the score - Brahms and Schumann could make some pretty murky orchestral textures with far fewer instruments - and the fact that most of the time in Gurrelieder they're accompanying voices so they had to be more sensitively used if the voices were to be heard at all... remember also that the orchestration of Gurrelieder postdates both op.16 and Erwartung which I think is where Schoenberg found a way to combine complexity with clarity. I haven't heard the Barbirolli recording, however, and it seems like I ought to.

I can't find it on Qobuz unfortunately, so I've gone for Boulez's second recording, made at a concert in 2003 with the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester (who make an absolutely wonderful sound, easily the equal of most professional orchestras). I think the murkiness I've been mentioning isn't "bad orchestration" as such, since it's possible to hear everything, in as far as one can really say that without a score to hand, but an overabundance of foreground and not enough perspective, so that it sometimes feels like you're hearing all the themes all the time.

[Richard Barrett]

Yesterday evening I abandoned Cambreling's Moses und Aron as too soft-focused and clinical, and launched instead into Solti's, which I'd never heard before. Obviously it's intensely dramatic, and the pairing of Franz Mazura (who really sounds at the beginning like he's tired of divine revelations and wants to get back to his sheep) and Philip Langridge seems perfect. This will be the one for me from now on. I always used to like the first Boulez recording but it does show its age in terms of sonic clarity, and his second is beautiful in many ways but you need a native German speaker for Moses and David Pittman-Jennings is a big letdown as far as I'm concerned.

Previously, I continued to work my way through the big Boulez box - the Serenade (hasn't been bettered as far as I know), Verklärte Nacht (the sextet version, not my favourite performance of this which would be the LaSalle Quartet and friends), 3 Pieces for Chamber Orchestra (fascinating), 5 Pieces op.16 and Variations op.31 (both of which I wasn't paying sufficient attention to). More later on today I think.

[Serial_Apologist]

Schoenberg's Style and Idea gave us a pretty clear notion of where his ideas on composition and where music was going at the time of its writing (late 1940s). I am overjoyed at having found this text, which has taken me a couple of days to read through, but without which I would not have been. It includes the essay "On revient toujours" in which he acknowledges returning to pre-serial, pre-atonal idioms with just a hint of coyness: there are opinions here that many, including me, will disagree with of course, but in the light of Schoenberg's reputed absence of humour or self-criticism, these qualities are there for anyone to read in this text.

Here is the link to the entire thesis, if I'm not mistaken:

https://monoskop.org/images/8/84/Schoenberg_Arnold_Style_and_Idea.pdf