Simpson, Robert (1921-1997)

[Beef Oven!]

Even those DSCH wrote for the piano?

I have the Hyperion Simpson symphony set, but can't say I have played all the CDs; might be something to do now R3 is so dire in the mornings.
Any thoughts on his Piano concerto, which I have on a BBC Radio Classics CD (Carlton), c/w Rawsthorne PC2 and Concerto for two pianos?

I don't know the piano concerto. I'll see if I can find it to stream.

[Richard Barrett]

Even those DSCH wrote for the piano?

I do have a soft spot for those in fact. I'm trying to put my finger on my "issue" with Simpson's music and maybe not succeeding entirely. Ed's point about thin material worried to death also chimes with my experience, maybe that's more accurate than blaming it on the fugues, although in general when a 20th century composer lurches into fugue mode I soon start thinking "gosh, is that the time?" DSCH's fugues for piano are relatively brief of course.

In general I think imitative-counterpoint forms need to be conceived from a different angle, at a time in history when making everything fit together ingeniously into a tonal framework is no longer necessary (and Simpson clearly doesn't worry too much about avoiding dissonance) - the results can easily seem dull and harmonically arbitrary.

[edashtav]

I do have a soft spot for those in fact. I'm trying to put my finger on my "issue" with Simpson's music and maybe not succeeding entirely. Ed's point about thin material worried to death also chimes with my experience, maybe that's more accurate than blaming it on the fugues, although in general when a 20th century composer lurches into fugue mode I soon start thinking "gosh, is that the time?" DSCH's fugues for piano are relatively brief of course.

In general I think imitative-counterpoint forms need to be conceived from a different angle, at a time in history when making everything fit together ingeniously into a tonal framework is no longer necessary (and Simpson clearly doesn't worry too much about avoiding dissonance) - the results can easily seem dull and harmonically arbitrary.

Thoughtful and helpful. Thank you, Richard.

[edashtav]

To hammer home my hectoring point, Beefo, I'm looking at the last 18 bars in 3/4 time of Bob's first symphony. By my reckoning, there are 237 subito forte (sf) and subito fortissimo (sff) notes. There is a law of diminishing returns and Bob's Symphony, even in Adrian Boult's soft hands, 'does my 'ed in'.

Was our Bob the accent King of 20th century British music?
I reckon that at 'A bob a job', he'd have died a millionaire.

[Richard Barrett]

By my reckoning, there are 237 subito forte (sf)

"sf" generally stands for "sforzando" rather than "subito forte"; not that this in any way invalidates your point!

[Pulcinella]

To hammer home my hectoring point, Beefo, I'm looking at the last 18 bars in 3/4 time of Bob's first symphony. By my reckoning, there are 237 subito forte (sf) and subito fortissimo (sff) notes. There is a law of diminishing returns and Bob's Symphony, even in Adrian Boult's soft hands, 'does my 'ed in'.

Was our Bob the accent King of 20th century British music?
I reckon that at 'A bob a job', he'd have died a millionaire.

Just as well there's not a dispute about how many hammer blows there should be, then, like in a certain Mahler symphony.

[Beef Oven!]

To hammer home my hectoring point, Beefo, I'm looking at the last 18 bars in 3/4 time of Bob's first symphony. By my reckoning, there are 237 subito forte (sf) and subito fortissimo (sff) notes. There is a law of diminishing returns and Bob's Symphony, even in Adrian Boult's soft hands, 'does my 'ed in'.

I quite like the ending of his first symphony, the way he whips it all up and stops on a sixpence. I don't feel the least bit hectored - in fact I wouldn't have even thought of it, had you not mentioned it! I guess this part of the topic is indeed about taste, rather than any objective facts.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

To hammer home my hectoring point, Beefo, I'm looking at the last 18 bars in 3/4 time of Bob's first symphony. By my reckoning, there are 237 subito forte (sf) and subito fortissimo (sff) notes. There is a law of diminishing returns and Bob's Symphony, even in Adrian Boult's soft hands, 'does my 'ed in'.

YES! I think that this is the feature that most wore away my own initial enthusiasm for the Symphonies (and explains why I'm still enthusiastic about the Slow Movements, where they're less omnipresent). I feel - perhaps entirely incorrectly - that the intention is to create an orgiastic sense of power and ecstasy, but I found the relentless aggression increasingly repellent.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I wouldn't have even thought of it, had you not mentioned it!

I guess this part of the topic is indeed about taste, rather than any objective facts.

- which is why I hope that with time, my own "taste" will return to the greater enthusiasm I used to have for these works. Until then ...

[kea]

In general I think imitative-counterpoint forms need to be conceived from a different angle, at a time in history when making everything fit together ingeniously into a tonal framework is no longer necessary (and Simpson clearly doesn't worry too much about avoiding dissonance) - the results can easily seem dull and harmonically arbitrary.

That's actually the main thing that bothers me about the Shostakovich fugues—the voice-leading and dissonances seem so arbitrary. Maybe that's part of the appeal though.

Re the Simpson fugues what they always remind me of is
https://youtu.be/NYrCiE7U0_0?t=1492 & https://youtu.be/WXZuc33dUmQ?t=863 mostly because so many of them have the same intense surface activity but static nature. I think the thing is here that neither Nielsen nor Shostakovich was actually writing a fugue though: both of these examples are magnificently silly fakeouts inserted into the music to disrupt the underlying structure. Simpson always seems to write fugues in earnest for developmental purposes; maybe more willingness to use disruption as a musical tactic would have endeared his music to me a little more.

I'm not sure though because I have nothing against at least one symphonic movement that consists of 13 minutes of continuous development with no disruption. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMSq1Bd1Pss) Maybe the triadic tonal language and easier-to-follow musical ideas are what do it for me in this case (virtually every composition teacher/fellow student I've ever encountered has been scornful of it and me by extension). Or another symphonic movement of 28 minutes of continuous development based on intervallic relations in a non-triadic tonal language (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiEiriTNjCY...weirdly, composition teachers/fellow students also think this piece is bad) but maybe there it's because the music makes use of heterophony, a fascination of mine for a long time now, and the rhythm is freer and not locked into the metrical grids that characterise Simpson's writing.

Actually yeah, now that I think about it, the use of rhythm and metre is probably what I find most offputting about Simpson's music. Especially all the brownian motion in 6/8 time or whatever which it seems he puts into every single piece for long stretches >.>

In the interests of fairness I should note that I relistened to the 7th Symphony and still like it, particularly the ending, which is a much more logical outcome of the preceding bombast than the very arbitrary-sounding A major conclusion of two hundred and thirty-seven sforzandi referred to above (or the D major conclusion which must be even longer at the end of the 6th Symphony). Another non-overdone ending is the last four unisons of the 8th Symphony—I'm not sold on everything else that came before them, but those last four notes are perfectly placed and totally convincing. I also enjoy the 11th Symphony and the little clouds of sound that keep building up and then disappearing throughout it. It's somewhat of a departure from the earlier symphonies and I do sort of wish he'd lived to mine that seam further.

[Richard Barrett]

I also enjoy the 11th Symphony and the little clouds of sound that keep building up and then disappearing throughout it. It's somewhat of a departure from the earlier symphonies and I do sort of wish he'd lived to mine that seam further.

That sounds very intriguing, I'll give that a go today.

[ahinton]

The second string quintet (Simpson's last piece) is another work well worth exploring; not a great deal of material but no hectoring there, methinks.

[kea]

That sounds very intriguing, I'll give that a go today.

It still has a lot of the usual.... Simpson stuff..... but there are long stretches where that stuff seems to be discarded or become almost irrelevant, which is what makes me think he might have eventually moved on past the stylistic trademarks. No idea if you would like it. >.>

The second string quintet (Simpson's last piece) is another work well worth exploring; not a great deal of material but no hectoring there, methinks.

Listening to this now... it's certainly a gentler and less severe piece than some of the earlier string quartets I've heard. For some reason the way the instruments are used doesn't appeal to me though. This is an instrumental combination that imo has a lot of potential and shouldn't necessarily sound like the music could be transferred to a quintet of accordions with no loss in coherence, unless that's the point.

(Also it kind of has the Carter 2nd Quartet Problem in that the main theme/intervallic idea/whatever might have a lot of developmental potential, but honestly sounds kind of arbitrary and ugly in practice.)

[Beef Oven!]

I think I see a pattern - the more musically-fluent and 'trained' of us find obstacles with Simpson's music and those more reliant on visceral responses are more satisfied. Or the more we consider Simpson's music in terms of it's pure composition, the more complication we have with it.

[Arnold Bax]

I'm afraid to say that I find the music of Doctor Robert Simpson quite extraordinary, and place him among the greatest masters of twentieth century music (discuss...). As I have bubbled on rather boringly, I discovered a recording of the Clarinet Quintet and the first String Quartet in a second hand LP shop, I was completely hooked. As I started collecting his output as they came out on the excellent Hyperion label, I heard that the Philharmonia Orchestra (managing director my old music teacher) were to play Uncle Bob's Ninth Symphony at the RFH, conducted by Simon Rattle. I rushed to secure tickets, and as I already had Tod Handley's marvellous account on CD, I was well prepared. Unbelievable. And Simpson was there in person too, so I had a few words with him after the concert. Among the greatest days of my life.