Beethoven, Ludwig van that ilk (1770 - 1827)

[muzzer]

Not sure if anyone has posted about this yet, but this is a bargain https://www.barbican.org.uk/whats-on...eekend-tickets

[Serial_Apologist]

Faults in van Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.

The first two movements are superb. But the third goes on for far too long. And the fourth is simply absurd:
- double-basses do not talk
- the Turkish march is uncalled-for in that context
- shriekng sopranos will certainly wreck any symphony.
The only worthwhile part is the slow half minute with the stars, and that derives from the third symphony.


So in summary, the third movement needs to be cut to fifty per cent of its present duration, and an entirely new fourth movement needs to be written. A great fugue for grand orchestra would serve the purpose very well, in my view.

Are there any present-day composers willing to undertake these corrections?

For me the hymn-like character of the third movement theme together with its manner of orchestration are amazingly prophetic of Mahler slow movements - name just about any - and I'm quite happy with it. The problem lies in the over-repetitiveness of the first and second movements, which, doubtless for some, are what drives their impact home; but for me it's "oh no, not again!" The same applies for me to the scherzo third movement of the Seventh - "oh here we go again, another repeat of the tum titty tum tum tum, tum tum tum tum tum tum theme, to be followed, yet again for sure, by the Trio, then back again, yawn, to the scherzo - which Beethoven concludes irritatedly by rushing it before shutting the whole thing down, as if he's as fed up as we, well I, am. Verbosity, in a - well several - words.

One could, of course, weed a lot of the repeats out; but that would presumably destroy the whole point of the symphonies, whatever that point is, beyond admiration for cantankerous beligerent insistence. Move on down the line, o people: the late string quartets offer so much more than this.

[BBMmk2]

I love the third movement of LvB’s 9th. For me this movement isn’t too long at all. The only gripe I have, is the 4th movement of the 9th. For the past few years I’ve been thinking , does it really belong? Is it necessary? Should it be a separate work? Should Beethoven have left it with three movements?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For the past few years I’ve been thinking , does it really belong?

Yes.

Is it necessary?

Yes.

Should it be a separate work?

No.

Should Beethoven have left it with three movements?

No.

Happy to have helped.

[cloughie]

Yes.


Yes.


No.


No.

Happy to have helped.

My answers are no, no, why did he bother to write it? And yes

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My answers are no, no, why did he bother to write it? And yes

0/4 - must try much harder.

[cloughie]

0/4 - must try much harder.

You’ll be giving me a detention next and insisting on me listening to 9(4) 3 times or writing out the lyrics of ‘Ode to Joy’ 10 times. Well, boo to you and I still don’t like it!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

- I never gave detentions: I didn't see the point of giving up my free time to spend it with naughty children!

Yes, lots of people "don't like" the Finale of the Ninth, and there's nothing much that can be said about personal taste. But the serious and correct answers to Bbm's self-questioning are those I gave earlier - Beethoven knew what he was doing, and why it was necessary to do it.

[vinteuil]

- Beethoven knew what he was doing

... ah, that opens up avenue after avenue. Do creative artists always 'know best' about their creations? What about when they change their minds - are their later decisions always the 'right' ones? Most critics wd say that Wordsworth's 1805 Prelude is much preferable to his re-writes of 1813, 1850 etc. And Bruckner??

.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... ah, that opens up avenue after avenue. Do creative artists always 'know best' about their creations?

With artists of the stature of Beethoven at this stage in his career, yes - "best" in the sense of "better than anyone else".

What about when they change their minds -

In this instance, Beethoven didn't - much as the greatly-missed Roehre frequently sought to make himself believe this because he, too, didn't like this Finale.

are their later decisions always the 'right' ones? Most critics wd say that Wordsworth's 1805 Prelude is much preferable to his re-writes of 1813, 1850 etc. And Bruckner??

They might - as in the case of Bruckner - be "right" decisions, if not necessarily "the right ones" (the very different 1887 and 1890 versions of the Eighth Symphony are both valid works - if the latter did not exist, the former would still be one of the greatest Symphonies ever written. That I prefer the later version is probably because I've known it for a quarter-century longer than I have the earlier.) Beethoven did offer an alternative Finale to the Bb S4tet, to make it easier on the listeners and performers - and provided Music that offered a completely different but satisfactory conclusion to the work than the Grosse Fuge. I much prefer the longer, original Finale, but the simpler Finale can work validly in a committed performance.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

- I never gave detentions: I didn't see the point of giving up my free time to spend it with naughty children!

- which is NOT meant to suggest any opinions about cloughie! I would gladly and cheerfully spend a couple of hours' "detention" in a convenient hostelry in his company.

[Serial_Apologist]

... ah, that opens up avenue after avenue. Do creative artists always 'know best' about their creations? What about when they change their minds - are their later decisions always the 'right' ones? Most critics wd say that Wordsworth's 1805 Prelude is much preferable to his re-writes of 1813, 1850 etc. And Bruckner??

.

And Hindemith???

[Bryn]

And Hindemith???

His further thoughts on Wagner's Flying Dutchman overture were certainly an improvement.

[Serial_Apologist]

Beethoven did offer an alternative Finale to the Bb S4tet, to make it easier on the listeners and performers - and provided Music that offered a completely different but satisfactory conclusion to the work than the Grosse Fuge. I much prefer the longer, original Finale, but the simpler Finale can work validly in a committed performance.

The Grosse Fuge comes in hard after that strange, slow movement with its halting central section, and one wonders what Beethoven really meant by it? Whenever I listen to this great quartet in its entirety, my solution is always to listen to the version concluding with it, then come back the next day and hear the "final" version. And I still haven't been able to make up my mind which is the one I prefer. Actually, the Grosse Fuge stands well as a self-contained work in its own right; am I right in thinking Beethoven was content for it to be performed thus?

[Serial_Apologist]

His further thoughts on Wagner's Flying Dutchman overture were certainly an improvement.

I was thinking in particular of the revisions to Das Marienleben.