Bernstein, Leonard (1918 - 1990)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(blame ferney!)

Generally recommended.

I happen to think that Bernstein did himself few favours by choosing the Israel Phil for his DG recordings, and generally much prefer his earlier CBS (now Sony: tempted by the latest remastering!) versions.
Does it need the musical equivalent of a linguistic native speaker to give a good performance?
For what it's worth, I don't necessarily feel that all American orchestras/conductors are inherently attuned to his idiom either.

Well ... given that LB could have recorded his works again with the NYPO (or indeed, the Bostonians ... or even the VPO) it begs the question why did he choose the Israelis? Is it, perhaps, that by the time he came to re-record his own works, he had increasingly become aware that the NYPO recordings could be complemented by performances that brought out the Jewish aspects of the Music that weren't quite captured by the New Yorkers? In works such as the Jeremiah and Kaddish Symphonies, as well as Dybbuk, the "native" element of your "equivalent of a linguistic native speaker" involves more than simply a New York "accent" (from this Massachusetsan-born composer).

Bernstein's "idiom" is perhaps a wider, more "plastic" one than your post might imply - he couldn't have written those works (and Halil which was written for the IPO, of course) had it not been.

[Pulcinella]

Well ... given that LB could have recorded his works again with the NYPO (or indeed, the Bostonians ... or even the VPO) it begs the question why did he choose the Israelis? Is it, perhaps, that by the time he came to re-record his own works, he had increasingly become aware that the NYPO recordings could be complemented by performances that brought out the Jewish aspects of the Music that weren't quite captured by the New Yorkers? In works such as the Jeremiah and Kaddish Symphonies, as well as Dybbuk, the "native" element of your "equivalent of a linguistic native speaker" involves more than simply a New York "accent" (from this Massachusetsan-born composer).

Bernstein's "idiom" is perhaps a wider, more "plastic" one than your post might imply - he couldn't have written those works (and Halil which was written for the IPO, of course) had it not been.

Points taken (even allowing for the two 'perhaps'es!).

The original post for discussion arose from a comment about orchestras being able to 'swing' rather than portray Jewishness. That ability is, for me, the 'make or break' in a successful performance.
That said, this review of Judd's Naxos recording of Jeremiah and the Concerto for Orchestra certainly makes the point for alternative interpretations:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Naxos/8559100

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The original post for discussion arose from a comment about orchestras being able to 'swing' rather than portray Jewishness.

A consideration that might, perchance, have been helpfully mentioned in your post #12?

That ability is, for me, the 'make or break' in a successful performance.

Which is perfectly fair enough - but maybe not so necessary for the composer? That, possibly, for him there were other aspects of his Music that "did it justice" and that he sought from orchestras with a conceivably more limited "oscillation"? What is it about the New Zealanders' recording that makes more of a point for "alternative interpretations" than the Israelis under the composer?

[Pulcinella]

A consideration that might, perchance, have been helpfully mentioned in your post #12?

But it's just one of the 'for whatever reason's isn't it?

Which is perfectly fair enough - but maybe not so necessary for the composer? That, possibly, for him there were other aspects of his Music that "did it justice" and that he sought from orchestras with a conceivably more limited "oscillation"? What is it about the New Zealanders' recording that makes more of a point for "alternative interpretations" than the Israelis under the composer?

Does it make more of a point, or just reinforce the fact that 'other interpretations are available', leading to the answer 'no' to my discussion topic, in that it does the music full justice. Which doesn't necessarily mean that I'd like it (or that it's the 'in my head' performance to which S-A alludes). Bernstein's music may be more resilient to these other interpretations than I had imagined. If so, that may well be a good thing, as appreciation for his music might then increase.
(I just happened to read the review while looking at recordings other than those I am familiar with.)

A (perhaps faulty) comparison could be different versions of the second movement of Walton's first symphony: Presto, con malizia. The notes might all be there, but if the malice isn't how I perceive it, it doesn't work for me, however valid an interpretation others might think it might be. When you hear, say, Previn's LSO performance, and hear how it crackles with pent-up energy, other performances can pale in comparison, without in any way diminishing Walton's stature as a composer or the quality of the music. I have the impression though that poor performances of Berstein's music can lead to a criticism of him as a composer, which I don't feel is warranted.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - and I totally agree about the Previn LSO Walton (and the later RPO recording neatly illustrates/parallels your point about what's there in LB's NYPO recordings of his own Symphonies that's missing from the IPO accounts).

What I suppose that what I'm getting at is the point that Bernstein was a pretty impressive conductor, and that the "favours" you perceive that he denied/rationed himself with the IPO means that you might not be hearing the "positive-but-different" favours that he's extracting from his different performers - differences that he specifically felt the audience needed to hear, and which the IPO were best capable of providing? (Providing a "fuller justice" to the works, complementing the earlier recordings, if you like.)

Poor performances of anyone's Music can lead to unwarranted criticisms of the Music - but can Bernstein's IPO performances be described as "poor"?

And, of course, had things been different and we had the DVDs of the concert series from the Barbican with the LSO that he conducted in his eightieth year - they'd've been different again.

[Pulcinella]

This is what the 2009 Penguin Guide has to say about the DG IPO set:

.....Bernstein recorded much of his music earlier with the New York Philharmonic, and those initial accounts have a unique flair and vitality. But if the Israel Philharmonic is not as virtuosic as the NYPO, they respond to the composer commitedly and persuasively, and the DG sound is generally fuller and better balanced than the vividly up-front CBS/Sony recordings.

Not poor, but (for me) not as exciting as the NYPO performances.

The prompt fof the discussion was this comment from edashtv on the Cincinnati Prom thread, following their performance of On the Waterfront:

Yes, indeed, Pulcinella, the performance of the "On The Waterfront" Suite was so wonderfully American in spirit, from the Wild West brutality of life in the Docks to those American inventions: big band music and Jazz. It's a strange suite as it fits Florentine Schmitt's title "Suite sans Esprit D'Une Suite" being a fully integrated 20 minute symphonic poem that owes much to Liszt and Tchaikovsky in shape and derives its Allegro Barbara violence from The Barton of Miraculous Mandarin. Perhaps, it was the composer's public rebuke to the manner in which his music had been mangled in the final version of the film where it had been cut and pasted, loud places made soft, etc. , all Bernstein's musical structure and logic having been destroyed in the editing suite. It deserves to be heard more often but ... does it need an American Orchestra to bring it fully to life?

I would say that it doesn't need an American orchestra per se, but it does need one with flair and panache. Given the success of the Copland recordings John Wilson has made with the BBCPO, I'd like to hear what he (and they) would make of some of Bernstein's music.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

OK - I think I'm getting closer to the point; and, yes, I can see that the On the Waterfront score benefits from a New York "flair and panache". But are you saying that this is also required in (for example) the Jeremiah or Kaddish Symphonies, or were your comments in #12 meant just for the OtW concert Music?

[Pulcinella]

OK - I think I'm getting closer to the point; and, yes, I can see that the On the Waterfront score benefits from a New York "flair and panache". But are you saying that this is also required in (for example) the Jeremiah or Kaddish Symphonies, or were your comments in #12 meant just for the OtW concert Music?

Certainly not just On the Waterfront!
In Jeremiah, for example, for me the second movement (Profanation) needs some of the sense of malice (in this case, snarling menace) of the aforementioned Walton as well as a sense of coping with and enjoying the rhythmic complexity rather than just playing the notes; in The Age of Anxiety, The Masque in Part II certainly needs panache! (And I would urge anyone interested to see the Royal Ballet rehearsal clip of this, mentioned previously, in post #2.)

Perhaps I worded my discussion topic a little unfortunately.
It strikes me that Bernstein's music is in some quarters not that highly regarded (I may well be mistaken; it will be interesting to see what sort of (re)appraisal his centenary brings about), and I was really wondering if this is because it can sometimes get performances that do not do it full justice and fall that bit flat; hence the delight that edashtav shared when we were treated last week to sparkling performances of On the Waterfront and the Candide overture.

[teamsaint]

Certainly not just On the Waterfront!
In Jeremiah, for example, for me the second movement (Profanation) needs some of the sense of malice (in this case, snarling menace) of the aforementioned Walton as well as a sense of coping with and enjoying the rhythmic complexity rather than just playing the notes; in The Age of Anxiety, The Masque in Part II certainly needs panache! (And I would urge anyone interested to see the Royal Ballet rehearsal clip of this, mentioned previously, in post #2.)

Perhaps I worded my discussion topic a little unfortunately.
It strikes me that Bernstein's music is in some quarters not that highly regarded (I may well be mistaken; it will be interesting to see what sort of (re)appraisal his centenary brings about), and I was really wondering if this is because it can sometimes get performances that do not do it full justice and fall that bit flat; hence the delight that edashtav shared when we were treated last week to sparkling performances of On the Waterfront and the Candide overture.

You can apply the Serial Apologist test to this for the DG reordings while listening , and certainly imagine something with more verve, style, etc. Incidentally, do you agree with the Penguin Guide comment about the sound on the DG recordings ? I listened to the first two symphonies in the car this morning, and wasn't that impressed on this occasion. But that could be the car stereo being less than perfect, although it isn't at all bad. There just seemed to be a very slightly indistinct feel to some of it, lack of absolute clarity , perhaps.

As to how well regarded his music is, there have been a total of 3 performances of his symphonies at the Proms, and the 3rd has never been performed there. Tells us a lot.

[Pulcinella]

You can apply the Serial Apologist test to this for the DG reordings while listening , and certainly imagine something with more verve, style, etc. Incidentally, do you agree with the Penguin Guide comment about the sound on the DG recordings ? I listened to the first two symphonies in the car this morning, and wasn't that impressed on this occasion. But that could be the car stereo being less than perfect, although it isn't at all bad. There just seemed to be a very slightly indistinct feel to some of it.

As to how well regarded his music is, there have been a total of 3 performances of his symphonies at the Proms, and the 3rd has never been performed there. Tells us a lot.

The Penguin Guide review refers to the 7CD Collector's Edition; not sure if any remastering was done.
I have a 12CD set that must predate that, and I think you have the same incarnations of those symphonies, P 1978, albeit packaged differently.
I have listened just now to the middle movement of Jeremiah, and would not call it indistinct, though it falls way behind the NYPO version in 'malice aforethought'. Alsop is also lacking in venom for me, and the early Bernstein St Louis version I played yesterday, after a rather tentative start, becomes something of a mad scramble.

[teamsaint]

The Penguin Guide review refers to the 7CD Collector's Edition; not sure if any remastering was done.
I have a 12CD set that must predate that, and I think you have the same incarnations of those symphonies, P 1978, albeit packaged differently.
I have listened just now to the middle movement of Jeremiah, and would not call it indistinct, though it falls way behind the NYPO version in 'malice aforethought'. Alsop is also lacking in venom for me, and the early Bernstein St Louis version I played yesterday, after a rather tentative start, becomes something of a mad scramble.

I'll check which edition/mastering it is. The sound is more than adequate, and I'll have another listen on my system at home, because a car really isn't a fair test.

[teamsaint]

Radio 3 used the In Tune Mixtape to launch their start of the 100th anniversary of his birth.

Which is in 2018. But the Bernstein at 100 celebrations are " officially" starting in August this year.

https://leonardbernstein.com/at100

[Beef Oven!]

Radio 3 used the In Tune Mixtape to launch their start of the 100th anniversary of his birth.

Which is in 2018. But the Bernstein at 100 celebrations are " officially" starting in August this year.

https://leonardbernstein.com/at100

So maybe we can have a fair amount of LB in this year's Proms?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Radio 3 used the In Tune Mixtape to launch their start of the 100th anniversary of his birth.

Which is in 2018. But the Bernstein at 100 celebrations are " officially" starting in August this year.

https://leonardbernstein.com/at100

Thanks, ts - in fact the link you provide states that the official celebrations began "on August 25th 2017" (and carry on until August 25th 2019 - a two-year centenary!!!)

[teamsaint]

Thanks, ts - in fact the link you provide states that the official celebrations began "on August 25th 2017" (and carry on until August 25th 2019 - a two-year centenary!!!)

Sorry , bit of a **** up on the start date ! I was right about what R3 said but forgot it was 2018 now.

( Long day at work, football, calf injury , hour and a half drive home from the office , is my excuse.......)