Xenakis, Iannis

[Richard Barrett]

Ligeti. But I eventually marked him down for his sense of humour, which I find very unfunny.

I agree. And I think part of the reason here is that his "humour" seems to act as a mask to hide a deeper lack of commitment, if that's the right word, which manifests itself in other ways too, for example in the shortwindedness of most of his compositions (and/or the movements they usually consist of). Which is not to say that some of his pieces aren't beautiful of course.

[Beef Oven]

I definitely had a Xenakis LP Beefie. About 20 years ago. Have you got it?

Not guilty. Also, I can't find my Wozzeck. Have you got it?

[Sir Velo]

I have to say that I find Aventures and Nouvelles Aventures uproariously funny. Nothing subverts the emptiness of grand opera bel canto gestures than these witty little pieces. Having said that, George Benjamin, on a 2009 COTW broadcast confessed to finding them "silly" IIRC. But then George is probably not renowned for his SOH.

Le Grand macabre is, of course, a towering masterpiece.

[Beef Oven]

I agree. And I think part of the reason here is that his "humour" seems to act as a mask to hide a deeper lack of commitment...

Or maybe that's just how he is/was/wants to be. To you, it might be short-winded. I enjoy listening to Ligeti very much indeed.

[amateur51]

I agree. And I think part of the reason here is that his "humour" seems to act as a mask to hide a deeper lack of commitment, if that's the right word, which manifests itself in other ways too, for example in the shortwindedness of most of his compositions (and/or the movements they usually consist of). Which is not to say that some of his pieces aren't beautiful of course.

One person's shortwindedness might be another person's concise polished perfection, I guess

[amateur51]

Or maybe that's just how he is/was/wants to be. To you, it might be short-winded. I enjoy listening to Ligeti very much indeed.

I cross-posted with you Beefy - and I agree with you

[Richard Barrett]

Of course there's no doubt that Ligeti was a highly skilled composer and (probably, though you never know) wrote exactly the music he wanted to. I just can't see it as "concise, polished perfection" though. An example: the late Hamburg Concerto where he has the brilliant* idea of combining the solo valved horn with a quartet of differently-pitched natural horns in the orchestra, so as to explore the "out-of-tune" possibilities of their various overtone series (and it's clear that this is what he wanted to do because he says so in his programme note). But in the course of seven movements lasting fifteen minutes or so, this idea is touched on once or twice in a perfunctory sort of way but never really explored. I could think of plenty of other examples of what strikes me as perfunctoriness in Ligeti's music, although obviously this same feature will strike different people in different ways. As for (Nouvelles) Aventures and Le grand macabre, I guess I'm not sufficiently interested in opera to be much exercised by its bing "subverted"! On the other hand if George Benjamin thinks something is silly there must be something good about it...

* not meant sarcastically, in case that isn't clear!

[Sydney Grew]

I think a useful distinction can be made between a) people who mostly write notes (also known as "pitched tones"), and b) people who mostly write unpitched sounds (also known as "funny noises" - rapping the pianoforte, that sort of thing). Ligeti was one of the latter I have always thought.

[verismissimo]

I think a useful distinction can be made between a) people who mostly write notes (also known as "pitched tones"), and b) people who mostly write unpitched sounds (also known as "funny noises" - rapping the pianoforte, that sort of thing). Ligeti was one of the latter I have always thought.

Several misconceptions here, Mr Grew.

[Richard Barrett]

I think a useful distinction can be made between a) people who mostly write notes (also known as "pitched tones"), and b) people who mostly write unpitched sounds (also known as "funny noises" - rapping the pianoforte, that sort of thing). Ligeti was one of the latter I have always thought.

Then you are mistaken. Ligeti mostly wrote "pitched tones".

[Sir Velo]

Well, Ligeti is an innovator isn't he? the experimenter in music par excellence if you will. I can't think of anyone else who has been able to make a coherent surreally tragic musical composition out of a hundred metronomes, presaging the silencing of the human voice for all time; or able to convey the monstrosity of the machine in various stages of collapse, as in Volumina. A unique musical voice.

[umslopogaas]

I've got two discs of Xenakis, both LPs:

Vanguard VCS 10030. Metastasis, Pithoprakta and Eonta. French National Radio O., cond. Maurice le Roux

Decca Headline Head 13. Synaphai, Aroura and Antikthon. New Philharmonia O. cond. Elgar Howarth

I couldnt hum a tune from any one them, but they are terribly good for establishing my credentials (falsely) as one who knows all about this avant-garde stuff.

[Beef Oven]

Well, Ligeti is an innovator isn't he? the experimenter in music par excellence if you will. I can't think of anyone else who has been able to make a coherent surreally tragic musical composition out of a hundred metronomes, presaging the silencing of the human voice for all time; or able to convey the monstrosity of the machine in various stages of collapse, as in Volumina. A unique musical voice.

[amateur51]

Of course there's no doubt that Ligeti was a highly skilled composer and (probably, though you never know) wrote exactly the music he wanted to. I just can't see it as "concise, polished perfection" though. An example: the late Hamburg Concerto where he has the brilliant* idea of combining the solo valved horn with a quartet of differently-pitched natural horns in the orchestra, so as to explore the "out-of-tune" possibilities of their various overtone series (and it's clear that this is what he wanted to do because he says so in his programme note). But in the course of seven movements lasting fifteen minutes or so, this idea is touched on once or twice in a perfunctory sort of way but never really explored. I could think of plenty of other examples of what strikes me as perfunctoriness in Ligeti's music, although obviously this same feature will strike different people in different ways. As for (Nouvelles) Aventures and Le grand macabre, I guess I'm not sufficiently interested in opera to be much exercised by its bing "subverted"! On the other hand if George Benjamin thinks something is silly there must be something good about it...

* not meant sarcastically, in case that isn't clear!

Many thanks for this very interesting and careful reply, you obviously know more of Ligeti's music than I do. That perfunctoriness - does you experience it anything like the 'here it is, now it's gone' quality I sometimes get in Janacek?

[Richard Barrett]

Well, Ligeti is an innovator isn't he? the experimenter in music par excellence if you will.

I wouldn't really see him like that - I think the "innovatory" qualities of his work often derive from elsewhere - the piece for metronomes, for example, dates from his association with the Fluxus movement in the arts, where such ideas weren't particularly out of the ordinary; and the gradually shifting sound-surfaces of pieces like Atmosphères and Lontano were certainly distilled from preexistent works like Stockhausen's Carré and Cerha's Spiegel series. And for most of his life he was more concerned with a rather "classical" sense of form, balance, duration, harmony and so on, often not dissimilar from that of Bartók, whose shadow looms increasingly large over Ligeti's oeuvre as it progressed.