Xenakis, Iannis

[amateur51]

The sounds animals make are not the same as the accidental sounds wind makes. My understanding is that birds compose their songs just as we 'compose' our sentences from words, or sounds with specific meanings (to us). Bird song is 'composed' with intentions - identification, alarm, establishing territory, courtship. And even, perhaps, for fun.

Thanks to this thread I am enjoying this extraordinary little programme with 'new' ears

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s6xyk/episodes/player

[Flosshilde]

Haven't heard any yet. Pity they're not available as podcasts - they have enormous potential.

[doversoul1]

Flosshilde

The sounds animals make are not the same as the accidental sounds wind makes. My understanding is that birds compose their songs just as we 'compose' our sentences from words, or sounds with specific meanings (to us). Bird song is 'composed' with intentions - identification, alarm, establishing territory, courtship. And even, perhaps, for fun

Whereas I see the point you are making, somehow I feel there is a difference between bird songs or animal calls and manmade music, but as I can’t put into words, I shan’t argue about it now.

Richard

I think your idea of something being music if it's presented and/or intended as music is too limiting.

I rephrase it as:
Drawing the line between music and non-music (probably) only makes sense as a discussion when something is presented as a work / piece of composed music (possibly) to be heard by an audience.

I think you need to narrow the subject to have a meaningful discussion on the thread that has developed from the OP.

[Richard Barrett]

Drawing the line between music and non-music (probably) only makes sense as a discussion when something is presented as a work / piece of composed music (possibly) to be heard by an audience.

I would ask why it should "make sense" to draw that line at all. Many of the concepts and ideas we deal with every day are understood as not being definitively closed off from the rest of the world by such a line - why should music be any different?

I suppose it could be said that on some level there's a difference in intentionality between animal and bird calls and human music, and obviously there are potential dimensions to human music which depend on that intentionality, but what I'm suggesting is that the intentionality of listening is what's decisive, if anything. Personally I find that a more fruitful way to think. Some people are clearly incapable of experiencing the compositions of Xenakis as music; but if they paid more attention to hearing say the sound of crickets on a summer night as music, they might come to Xenakis in a fresher and more receptive way. Why should they bother? because this music can communicate something about what it is to be human in a way that no other music does, which is another way of saying it can enrich and deepen the hearer's thoughts and emotions in a unique way. Unless one refuses to allow it to do so.

[Quarky]

Over the past 3 days or so I have interpolated a fair bit of my Pierre Boulez, Luciano Berio, Edgar Varese, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Luigi Nono CDs into my playlist.

If I liked that, what else should I try?

About 20 years ago I bought a number of CDs with some birthday money and one of them was a Xenakis CD. I'd never heard of him, sounded interesting. Thought he might be Greek. Played it twice. Utterly confused. Didn't play it again. Can't find it. Must be lost. I only have O-level maths.

just spotted this most interesting thread. The cult of Dionysius?

[Flosshilde]

Whereas I see the point you are making, somehow I feel there is a difference between bird songs or animal calls and manmade music, but as I can’t put into words, I shan’t argue about it now.

...
I think you need to narrow the subject to have a meaningful discussion on the thread that has developed from the OP

I think I can see what you are saying - & it is difficult to put into words - I think the discussion as it has developed, after Simon's interjection that Xenakis' work isn't music, is about what makes sounds music. If you introduce the idea of 'intention', by which I understand you to mean there has to be an intentional construction in the group of sounds, ie they are put together to create something that has a meaning, then the sounds birds make are music, as they are constructed & have a meaning, and additionally the bird has to learn the sounds.

[Beef Oven]

I would ask why it should "make sense" to draw that line at all. Many of the concepts and ideas we deal with every day are understood as not being definitively closed off from the rest of the world by such a line - why should music be any different?

I suppose it could be said that on some level there's a difference in intentionality between animal and bird calls and human music, and obviously there are potential dimensions to human music which depend on that intentionality, but what I'm suggesting is that the intentionality of listening is what's decisive, if anything. Personally I find that a more fruitful way to think. Some people are clearly incapable of experiencing the compositions of Xenakis as music; but if they paid more attention to hearing say the sound of crickets on a summer night as music, they might come to Xenakis in a fresher and more receptive way. Why should they bother? because this music can communicate something about what it is to be human in a way that no other music does, which is another way of saying it can enrich and deepen the hearer's thoughts and emotions in a unique way. Unless one refuses to allow it to do so.

Are you referring to 'intentionality' - differentiating phenomena on an 'understanding'/'reality' axis, or do you mean intention?

[Richard Barrett]

or do you mean intention?

yes, I did mean intention, but actually what I meant was more like perceived intention, which is my lame excuse for half-inadvertently slipping in the -ality. But now you're here: what was it about Xenakis's music that you found so confusing? Personally I find it much clearer in most ways than most of the other composers his name is often linked with.

[Beef Oven]

yes, I did mean intention, but actually what I meant was more like perceived intention, which is my lame excuse for half-inadvertently slipping in the -ality. But now you're here: what was it about Xenakis's music that you found so confusing? Personally I find it much clearer in most ways than most of the other composers his name is often linked with.

My confusion was based on a listen many years ago. Having listened to a fair bit of it lately, I would agree that his music is clearer than the usual suspects that people like me lump him with.

[Beef Oven]

just spotted this most interesting thread. The cult of Dionysius?

Certainly the odd glass of sherry helps the listening experience

[Beef Oven]

Not accidental
but this is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EQzR1c4j7k

and I don't think you were unreasonable at all

When folk start on the ENC riff (new clothes and all that etc ) it's a bit like Godwins law IMV
(hope the member for Amber Valley enjoyed Desert Island Discs this week )

Thanks for the link MrGG, another new one on me.

Love the Godwin's Law reference!! I reckon were under twenty posts away from a full-blown argument about capitalism

That DID was really unimaginative. Magnificent Seven ("fuckin' long innit") - he's having a tin-bath

[Quarky]

Certainly the odd glass of sherry helps the listening experience

Just a hunch Beef Oven, since many of these 'ere modern composers seem to take Greek Legends as inspiration. Seems to be substantiated form the Wiki entry:

"Xenakis attended Messiaen's classes regularly in 1951–53. Messiaen and his students studied music from a wide range of genres and styles, with particular attention to rhythm.[19] Xenakis's compositions from 1949–52 were mostly inspired by Greek folk melodies, as well as Bartók, Ravel, and others; after studying with Messiaen, he discovered serialism and gained a deep understanding of contemporary music (Messiaen's other pupils at the time included, for example, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Jean Barraqué). Messiaen's modal serialism was an influence on Xenakis's first large-scale work, Anastenaria (1953–54): a triptych for choir and orchestra based on an ancient Dionysian ritual. The third part of the triptych, Metastaseis, is generally regarded as the composer's first mature piece; it was detached from the triptych to mark the beginning of the "official" Xenakis oeuvre.[14]

And of course Messiaen was rather partial to our feathered friends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsevwRvnI4U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZazYFchLRI

[Boilk]

Thought he might be Greek. Played it twice. Utterly confused. Didn't play it again. Can't find it. Must be lost. I only have O-level maths.

If you'd had O-level Geography you could have found it years ago.

[Beef Oven]

If you'd had O-level Geography you could have found it years ago.

I got O-level geography too!

[Beef Oven]

Just a hunch Beef Oven, since many of these 'ere modern composers seem to take Greek Legends as inspiration. Seems to be substantiated form the Wiki entry:

"Xenakis attended Messiaen's classes regularly in 1951–53. Messiaen and his students studied music from a wide range of genres and styles, with particular attention to rhythm.[19] Xenakis's compositions from 1949–52 were mostly inspired by Greek folk melodies, as well as Bartók, Ravel, and others; after studying with Messiaen, he discovered serialism and gained a deep understanding of contemporary music (Messiaen's other pupils at the time included, for example, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Jean Barraqué). Messiaen's modal serialism was an influence on Xenakis's first large-scale work, Anastenaria (1953–54): a triptych for choir and orchestra based on an ancient Dionysian ritual. The third part of the triptych, Metastaseis, is generally regarded as the composer's first mature piece; it was detached from the triptych to mark the beginning of the "official" Xenakis oeuvre.[14]

And of course Messiaen was rather partial to our feathered friends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsevwRvnI4U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZazYFchLRI

Good hunch.

Great links too - especially the Ancient Greek Music - Sappho (I have Metastasis on order).