Xenakis, Iannis

[Joseph K]

A Xenakis documentary for your enjoyment (I've yet to watch it, though) -

https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/103998-000-A/xenakis-revolution/?fbclid=IwAR1XVayLOkH2Grtzn-TsNfGq2r1F0ztr9hBH2F1PYkBma57QOEpGzEY2x2c

[Bryn]

A Xenakis documentary for your enjoyment (I've yet to watch it, though) -

https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/103998...57QOEpGzEY2x2c

How's your French comprehension?

[Quarky]

A Xenakis documentary for your enjoyment (I've yet to watch it, though) -

https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/103998...57QOEpGzEY2x2c

Thanks for that; I enjoyed it immensely, and it did have subtitles, for when the going got tough.

Probably emigrating to France was the best thing Xenakis ever did. His music doesn't seem anywhere near so revolutionary these days, and I agree that it's best approached from a Greek perspective.

[Joseph K]

His music doesn't seem anywhere near so revolutionary these days,

Depends what you mean by revolutionary but - I beg to differ. Of course, it's impossible to put my ears in the place of the first audiences of Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky or Xenakis so there is a chance that they don't sound as revolutionary, however, I would definitely not go so far as to say they or specifically Xenakis don't sound anywhere near as revolutionary as they once did.

[Bryn]

Thanks for that; I enjoyed it immensely, and it did have subtitles, for when the going got tough.

Probably emigrating to France was the best thing Xenakis ever did. His music doesn't seem anywhere near so revolutionary these days, and I agree that it's best approached from a Greek perspective.

Familiarity breeds contempt? The revolutions he engaged in were historical, their impact is ongoing. As to his move to France, well, certainly better led there than dead.

[RichardB]

His music doesn't seem anywhere near so revolutionary these days

Most music being written now is a good deal less revolutionary than his, and is becoming even less so.

[Joseph K]

Most music being written now is a good deal less revolutionary than his, and is becoming even less so.

Yes. I wonder how much of Xenakis's music Quarky knows... just to take his late electronic pieces which in the grand scheme of things are not all that old (30-ish years) and they're still unique and uncompromising.

Having said that, even IX's music that is older hasn't really been absorbed into some kind of new mainstream, there doesn't seem to be that many contemporary composers who take off from where IX left off.

[Quarky]

Thanks for that; I enjoyed it immensely, and it did have subtitles, for when the going got tough.

Probably emigrating to France was the best thing Xenakis ever did. His music doesn't seem anywhere near so revolutionary these days, and I agree that it's best approached from a Greek perspective.

So as to avoid misunderstanding, I was taking a cue from the documentary, and which accorded to my understanding, that Xenakis threw out a 2000 year old rule book in his Stochastic compositions (of course there were parallel developments in USA). So a revolutionary of a different kind from earlier composers.

I've listened to a fair amount of Xenakis, his music interests me, but I certainly don't put myself forward as any type of expert, and I certainly have no intention of spending all my time listening to his complete works; life's too short! But correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think voicing an opinion on this board necessarily implies a great depth of musical knowledge. Nor is membership of the board limited to professionals and those of a similar standing.

[RichardB]

I've listened to a fair amount of Xenakis, his music interests me, but I certainly don't put myself forward as any type of expert, and I certainly have no intention of spending all my time listening to his complete works; life's too short! But correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think voicing an opinion on this board necessarily implies a great depth of musical knowledge. Nor is membership of the board limited to professionals and those of a similar standing.

On the other hand some of us here would be of the opinion that life is by no means too short to gain a deep and broad knowledge of Xenakis's work!

This isn't to do with "depth of musical knowledge" at all, I was just wondering about your opinion that Xenakis's music seems "less revolutionary these days". I would say that his work, whether or not one likes to listen to it, represents a fundamental rethinking of what music can express, how it can be conceived and made, and his thinking regarding the use of computers in sound synthesis was so far ahead of its time (and ahead of the technology available in his lifetime) that composers young enough to be his great-grandchildren are still catching up with it.

Alongside that, most composers "these days", I mean the sort of composers whose work might be taken up by the Proms, are going about their work as if they know nothing and care less about how profound Xenakis's revolutionary thinking was, which I find highly disappointing. I'm not trying to pull rank when I say that, as a prof of electronic music, I am often surprised at how students these days are often so much more conservative in their musical thinking than are faculty members. That's not how things ought to be!

[Joseph K]

One thing I was going to add to the edit of my post above was speculating over whether one of the things preventing IX's ideas becoming more mainstream or absorbed into contemporary music in general in the way one might suppose serial music has done, is the depth of mathematical knowledge required to really get a foothold on his concepts and technique. I'm ready to be corrected but I think this might be the case - I guess there is nothing stopping the ambitious composer from taking what they can just from studying one of his scores, though. Personally I would have to consult my sister for some understanding of these things, she's a statistician.

[Quarky]

Thanks all for your views on my post; it certainly puts my view in perspective : (and was the reason I made the original post!).

I'm not going to argue with your assessment of his works!

[Mandryka]

Yes. I wonder how much of Xenakis's music Quarky knows... just to take his late electronic pieces which in the grand scheme of things are not all that old (30-ish years) and they're still unique and uncompromising.

Having said that, even IX's music that is older hasn't really been absorbed into some kind of new mainstream, there doesn't seem to be that many contemporary composers who take off from where IX left off.

Well this comment has inspired me to finally listen more systematically to his late music, the music from the late 80s onwards -- try and understand what was going on there. And I may use this thread to jot down any responses I have. Anyway first up this morning is DOX-ORKH (1990 I think.) And it's like how I remembered it -- menacing, heavy, discordant.

Something must have deeply upset him up at this period of his life, to inspire him to write this sort of music. Was he depressed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovYpmOCbdfE&ab_channel=IrvineArditti-Topic

[Joseph K]

Something must have deeply upset him up at this period of his life, to inspire him to write this sort of music. Was he depressed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovYp...eArditti-Topic

It does not sound like or make sense to me as the music of a depressed person, which is a bit of an odd thing to suggest, IMO. Then again, I'm not sure one could judge from someone's music their mental state. In any case, DOX-ORKH is not uniformly menacing, heavy and discordant - there are textural and harmonic contrasts that are lighter. But most of IX's orchestral music features dense, heavy textures and might sound menacing - personally I find them awesomely colourful and often ecstatic, completely life-enhancing and affirming...

[RichardB]

It does not sound like or make sense to me as the music of a depressed person, which is a bit of an odd thing to suggest, IMO. Then again, I'm not sure one could judge from someone's music their mental state. In any case, DOX-ORKH is not uniformly menacing, heavy and discordant - there are textural and harmonic contrasts that are lighter. But most of IX's orchestral music features dense, heavy textures and might sound menacing - personally I find them awesomely colourful and often ecstatic, completely life-enhancing and affirming...

Quite. I'm sure Xenakis had his ups and downs like we all do, but I think he would have strongly denied the idea that his mental state at one time or another would influence the sound of his music. When I've suffered from depression the main effect it has on my work is to make it extremely difficult to do at all.

[RichardB]

the depth of mathematical knowledge required to really get a foothold on his concepts and technique

Actually it's not that hard to get to grips with, although his own writings are not necessarily the best place to start! - and once he had established the expanded space of musical possibilities opened up by his more mathematically oriented techniques he was able to skip the stage of calculation and go straight to the notes. Evryali for example is basically a transcription of "arborescences" created by drawing bifurcating and coalescing lines on graph paper. As he always used to say, it's the sound that's important, not the techniques. All that's necessary is to leave behind (as he did) received musical notions, and take both freedom and discipline to the maximum degree. That's what is missing IMO in a great deal of music being written now.