Xenakis, Iannis

[Serial_Apologist]

Flosshilde

Whereas I see the point you are making, somehow I feel there is a difference between bird songs or animal calls and manmade music, but as I can’t put into words, I shan’t argue about it now.

Richard

I rephrase it as:
Drawing the line between music and non-music (probably) only makes sense as a discussion when something is presented as a work / piece of composed music (possibly) to be heard by an audience.

I think you need to narrow the subject to have a meaningful discussion on the thread that has developed from the OP.

My understanding of Zen philosophy, which comes mainly courtesy John Cage and Alan Watts, (you might have to forgive me for that!), has it that we treat spiritually of natural phenomena by concentrating non-exclusively on the passing present - in so doing moments we may subsequently poetically describe as beyond moments take us beyond an everyday consciousness that perceives through the categories we spontaneously pin on things, thereby dividing up an originally undivided reality into constituent parts we then have to relink to form greater meanings - these being formed through language constructed into concepts.

What we describe as "intention" is inference: that cat "knows what it is doing" as it watches the bird, but it is us, through our learned capacity for inference, who infer the cat's intention. Confusing concepts with what they describe - there is a whole discipline for understanding how language works known as signification - is, one eastern sage, can't at present remember who - said, confusing the journey with the map. Cage's philosophy of "allowing sounds to be themselves" was part and parcel of a tradition that sees the selective ego, a confabulation of memories themselves "tainted" by exclusions, as limitive of experience; he devised means which would (as far as he saw it) limit the degree of control exercised by the artistic originator over outcomes. Of course, there was a contradiction, inasmuch as he saw himself as necessary, and not just in the preliminaries; but in order not to intend, one has as a starting point to intend not to intend. The experience precipitated by the disciplines, involving concentrating, ultimately, for its own good, rather than for ulterior motive, then becomes the lesson.

[teamsaint]

I got O-level geography too!

and that was back in the days when an O level was worth an O level, not like these modern so called GCSEs

[Dave2002]

and that was back in the days when an O level was worth an O level, not like these modern so called GCSEs

Don't knock them - I have one GCSE!

[EdgeleyRob]

Four proper,old fashioned,full fat O levels here,oh yes.

I have listened to some Xenakis in my time but I just don't enjoy it,wish I did but I don't,sorry.

[teamsaint]

Four proper,old fashioned,full fat O levels here,oh yes.

I have listened to some Xenakis in my time but I just don't enjoy it,wish I did but I don't,sorry.

If everybody is going to put their academic qualifications on the table, It's going to be a pretty long evening !!

(poor kids today all seem to do about 15 GCSEs, ). Mind you they all revise while mainlining Red Bull.

[Bryn]

Haven't heard any yet. Pity they're not available as podcasts - they have enormous potential.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/totd

[Flosshilde]

Thanks Bryn; I couldn't see any signpost to podcasts on the page Amateur linked to.

[Bryn]

Thanks Bryn; I couldn't see any signpost to podcasts on the page Amateur linked to.

It should be noted that the audio quality of the podcasts is considerably lower than that available via the iPlayer.

[Dave2002]

If everybody is going to put their academic qualifications on the table, It's going to be a pretty long evening !!

(poor kids today all seem to do about 15 GCSEs, ). Mind you they all revise while mainlining Red Bull.

OK. I didn't write I hadn't got any of the other things as well. I'll leave it there.

[MrGongGong]

I take it that you intended that as a trick question, for every schoolboy knows that the Antarctic Symphony is by that Master of the Queen's Music, Sir Peter Maxwell Davies CBE. The work with a somewhat similar title by Ralph Vaughan Williams is Sinfonia Antartica.

rumbled

Richard puts it very well here IMV

I am convinced that "music" is principally a way of listening.

Some folks don't like to listen

One thing that did occur to me while doing a composition workshop last week (with the figure of Alexei Sayle hovering over my shoulder ) is that if you go to a movie that makes you cry, or makes you angry, or makes you feel uncomfortable , it isn't considered to be a "failure" or even a notmovie. Why should music have to be constrained in this way ? One of the things I feel we have to try and stand against is the idea that music only has a single function , to be entertainment. You can see this everywhere , Radio 3, the NPME and so on....... entertainment is great BUT we loose so much if we have such a narrow focus.

(apologies for repeating this one ) as a 14 year old said to me after we listened to Volumina while following the score

' I don't "like" it , but its great, isn't it !'

[Pianoman]

Interesting thread. I was giving a talk recently to my local music society on Yorkshire composers, and finished with a wonderful work by my old composition teacher, Barnsley-born John Casken. Now John's music is about as approachable as contemporary music gets (to my ears) but the reaction from some quarters of the audience (admittedly of the more mature variety) had to be heard to be believed !

Mind you, I was heartened slightly when one old lady came up and said could she borrow the disc as she wanted to hear more of these interesting sounds...

[Beef Oven]

rumbled

Richard puts it very well here IMV



Some folks don't like to listen

One thing that did occur to me while doing a composition workshop last week (with the figure of Alexei Sayle hovering over my shoulder ) is that if you go to a movie that makes you cry, or makes you angry, or makes you feel uncomfortable , it isn't considered to be a "failure" or even a notmovie. Why should music have to be constrained in this way ? One of the things I feel we have to try and stand against is the idea that music only has a single function , to be entertainment. You can see this everywhere , Radio 3, the NPME and so on....... entertainment is great BUT we loose so much if we have such a narrow focus.

(apologies for repeating this one ) as a 14 year old said to me after we listened to Volumina while following the score

' I don't "like" it , but its great, isn't it !'

Somehow I missed Richard's observation that "music is principally a way of listening", or didn't pick up on it, but yes, this helps towards an understanding of what 'music' 'is'. And if one does not like a composition such as, say, Lou Reed's MMM, it does not have to be listened to as music and the denial of it as music need not be entered into.

[Beef Oven]

Never mind yer maths, hows yer architecture?

I have a Warner Classics Xenakis twofer with Phlegra, Jalons, Keren, Nomos Alpha, Thallein, Naama, A l'ile de Goree, Khoai and Komboi. Don't understand it but I like it. I think...

How are you on Ligeti? - I've got yards of it...

LeMP

I ordered that Xenakis disc you mentioned

I have 'yards' of Ligeti too. Recently added the Ligeti Project to my collection

[Quarky]

Yes, lots of good stuff with Ligeti. But I eventually marked him down for his sense of humour, which I find very unfunny. Stockhausen?

[verismissimo]

... About 20 years ago I bought a number of CDs with some birthday money and one of them was a Xenakis CD. I'd never heard of him, sounded interesting. Thought he might be Greek. Played it twice. Utterly confused. Didn't play it again. Can't find it. Must be lost.

I definitely had a Xenakis LP Beefie. About 20 years ago. Have you got it?