Brahms

[Dave2002]

I think that some listeners are put off Brahms because it sometimes sounds that even when relaxed his music never seems very happy. You could not imagine him writing the scherzo to A Midsummer Night's Dream.

The nonet - lost, but sometimes reconstructed and played - is pretty jovial.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm not particularly keen on the works for piano and strings. --- the violin sonatas are wonderful.

You could not imagine him writing the scherzo to A Midsummer Night's Dream.

Well ... Mendelssohn had already done this: can you imagine anybody other than Mendelssohn writing it? Berlioz and his Queen Mab, maybe?

And whom could you imagine writing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbrdS9u2HKg

[jayne lee wilson]

My only problem with Brahms is that I've listened so much, I have to ration it out a bit now to preserve my response...

One of the Four Corners, The Seven Symphonic Wonders, etc... with an astonishing range of moods, textures and styles, and such subtle, fluid mastery of form and structure you'd scarcely notice the deep integration of so many masterworks. I always think of the 2nd Symphony as an example of how much can grow from so little...

I never had a problem with "inner voices" or doublings etc... a Brahmsian essence, up to the performers to make clear.... hence the attraction of "Revisionists" like Mackerras. Manze, etc...

Brahms is one of my Gods.

[gradus]

Despite occupying an office across the street from the original Guildhall School rehearsal rooms and through open Summer windows being subject to seemingly endless repetitions of op119 particularly no.3, JB's piano music remains a personal passion, especially in Glenn Goulds' magnificent recordings. If you love the late piano pieces and haven't heard these interpretations do try these performances - heard 'blind' I doubt many would identify the pianist.

[visualnickmos]

Funny this thread should appear today, as for the last couple of days I've had a bit of a Brahmsfest. Namely the four symphonies with Georg Solti and the Chicago SO - I really enjoy this set very much. Followed by the two clarinet sonatas with Vladimir Ashkenazy and a clarinettist of whom I haven't heard - Franklin Cohen. What utterly delightful performances they are. The piano and clarinet seem to meander along together almost as if 'holding hands.' Perfect for a sun-sizzling Languedoc day, with a glass or two of ice-chilled rosé, crispy bread and a chunk of Cantal.....

[cloughie]

At a base level, he wrote some very pretty tunes which can be enjoyed by just about everyone who enjoys music.

I wouldn't call myself a Brahmsian but I can't think of anything by him that I actually dislike.

But can you say the same about Britten - there is a fair amount of His music that doesn't light my candle.

[Conchis]

But can you say the same about Britten - there is a fair amount of His music that doesn't light my candle.

I'd say BB's music is somewhat less accessible than Brahms.'

And, though 'dislike' would be too strong a term, operas like Owen Wingrave and compositions like the string quartets don't really do anything for me and I wouldn't be all that bothered if I never heard them again.

Reading this discussion has confirmed my initial feeling - that you need to have some level of musical education to 'take against' Brahms. I really don't hear anything to dislike at all.

[EdgeleyRob]

I love Brahms.

I do find though that increasingly I can take or leave the symphonies and concertos but cannot go too long without listening to his piano or chamber music.
Thinking about it I feel the same about Beethoven and Schumann.

[gurnemanz]

I love Brahms.

I do find though that increasingly I can take or leave the symphonies and concertos but cannot go too long without listening to his piano or chamber music.
Thinking about it I feel the same about Beethoven and Schumann.

I suppose over-familiarity is bound to play a part. I remember someone writing in 1970 for the Beethoven bi-centenary that the best thing we could do would be to forget about him for 10 years and then come back fresh.

Some things I never tire of: eg the cello tune at the start of Op 114, heard most recently live from the Nash Ensemble (Adrian Brendel) in a beautiful Gloucestershire church (Fairford)

[Roehre]

I suppose over-familiarity is bound to play a part. I remember someone writing in 1970 for the Beethoven bi-centenary that the best thing we could do would be to forget about him for 10 years and then come back fresh....

Something which was said in 1927 at the centenary of Beethoven's death already.... (and that was before extensive recording took place).

[Dave2002]

Reading this discussion has confirmed my initial feeling - that you need to have some level of musical education to 'take against' Brahms. I really don't hear anything to dislike at all.

That was partly why I mentioned BB in post 1. I though BB might have specific reasons which any educated musician would understand, but no, it appears from what has been written so far that it was just a pesonal feeling by BB, just as some people don't like blue cheese, and some don't like white wine.

I was expecting some reasons such as

Formally incoherent
Poor orchestration
Thick textures
Complex development
Poor melodies
Movements too long
Harmonies?

etc. but it seems none of these apply, for BB at least, or none owned up to.

Can anyone really come up with strong reasons to dislike Brahms?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was expecting some reasons such as

Formally incoherent
Poor orchestration
Thick textures
Complex development
Poor melodies
Movements too long
Harmonies?

etc. but it seems none of these apply, for BB at least, or none owned up to.

Can anyone really come up with strong reasons to dislike Brahms?

See #12; there are comments there which were those sent in to Music Weekly from members of the general, "classical" Music-loving public. I don't hear the weaknesses that were mentioned there, so I can't recognize them as "strong reasons" - but "needing some level of Music education" doesn't feature.

[vinteuil]

... for a long time I disliked Brahms, for all the predictable, cliché, reasons - sludge, brown.

I was won over by listening to
a) the piano works, esp the late stuff
b) then the chamber works, a revelation
c) lastly, with some reservations, the symphonies.

It goes without saying that Brahms makes much more sense when performed with appropriate Historically Informed sensibilities - then the notions of 'brown' and 'sludge' evaporate. Hats off, once again, to Roger Norrington. .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It goes without saying that Brahms makes much more sense when performed with appropriate Historically Informed sensibilities - then the notions of 'brown' and 'sludge' evaporate. Hats off, once again, to Roger Norrington. .

- whilst there are "old-school" performances of the orchestral works that I admire probably more than is good for me, the old cliché about "cleaning the varnish off an old master" is particularly appropriate for the textures and balances in Brahms' Music. Ferretf mentioned his dislike of the Piano & Strings chamber works. How wonderful to hear the Piano Quintet played on a mid-Nineteenth Century piano; strong tone but not overbearing as it can be in performances using a piano built to project Rachmaninoff over an orchestra to the back stalls of Carnegie Hall. So much rehearsal time devoted to "balance" can be saved just by using the instruments the composer heard and wrote for - the sense of the Quartet struggling to match the piano (which can create the false impression that this is an orchestral work "writ small") doesn't arise, and this wonderful Chamber Music is heard precisely so.

[teamsaint]

- whilst there are "old-school" performances of the orchestral works that I admire probably more than is good for me, the old cliché about "cleaning the varnish off an old master" is particularly appropriate for the textures and balances in Brahms' Music. Ferretf mentioned his dislike of the Piano & Strings chamber works. How wonderful to hear the Piano Quintet played on a mid-Nineteenth Century piano; strong tone but not overbearing as it can be in performances using a piano built to project Rachmaninoff over an orchestra to the back stalls of Carnegie Hall. So much rehearsal time devoted to "balance" can be saved just by using the instruments the composer heard and wrote for - the sense of the Quartet struggling to match the piano (which can create the false impression that this is an orchestral work "writ small") doesn't arise, and this wonderful Chamber Music is heard precisely so.

Ok, nice post ferney, but go on, give us a clue. bored of trawling the internet.

I just realised that the version I am about to spin is the Nash/Brown. At least they didn't make a dogs breakfast of it.