Brahms

[Dave2002]

Aimez-vous_Brahms? is a novel by Françoise Sagan - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimez-vous_Brahms%3F but it is also a question which Benjamin Britten reportedly answered in the negative on several occasions. One work which he did approve of was the clarinet quintet, but it seems to have been the only one.

Do we have any idea why BB disliked Brahms so much? Any rational reasons? Is the music of Brahms obviously deficient to those who are in the composing business?

[subcontrabass]

Aimez-vous_Brahms? is a novel by Françoise Sagan - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimez-vous_Brahms%3F but it is also a question which Benjamin Britten reportedly answered in the negative on several occasions. One work which he did approve of was the clarinet quintet, but it seems to have been the only one.

Do we have any idea why BB disliked Brahms so much? Any rational reasons? Is the music of Brahms obviously deficient to those who are in the composing business?

According to Britten himself it was simply a personal feeling:

"Nor does he find himself much in sympathy with the Second Viennese School, with the exception of Berg. 'I find Webern like a Mondrian painting – very fresh and cleansing but the baby seems to have gone out with the bath water. I must emphasise that these are my personal views and I don't believe, as so many people do today, in being dogmatic. The same applies to my opinion of Brahms. When we were in Adelaide recently, I was asked to say a few words on what I thought about Brahms. I suppose I know his work as well as anyone living and until I was about 16 or 17 he was one of my major passions. Then I suddenly found that his music didn't contain what I needed at that moment. I love the early works still – the D minor Concerto and the Piano Quintet, for instance. He saw that these didn't quite work but in striving for formal perfection, I feel that he somehow lost something and that something is what I miss in his later music. After saying this, I had a heartbroken letter from a student who had been very upset by what I said. I wrote back at length pointing out that this was my own reaction, and that I don't particularly like tomatoes and mushrooms but that didn't mean they were wicked or anything.' " (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features...njamin-britten )

[verismissimo]

Oui.

[Pianorak]

Qui a besoin de Britten quand vous pouvez avoir Brahms! - Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Conchis]

I was wondering about this myself, the other day. There is a great deal of hostility to Brahms, but it seems to be largely confined to the musically educated (among which number, I don't count myself).

Could it be something to do with Brahms' conservatism (both musical and political)? His support of Bismarck? His perceived misanthropy (which I don't think is reflected in his music, unless you count parts of the cello part of the Double Concerto and the beginning of the Academic Festival Overture)?

At a base level, he wrote some very pretty tunes which can be enjoyed by just about everyone who enjoys music.

I wouldn't call myself a Brahmsian but I can't think of anything by him that I actually dislike.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Subby gives the fullest account - and Britten also said (to R Murray Schafer in c1963) about Brahms and Beethoven:

Once I adored them. Between the ages of thirteen and sixteen I knew every note ... But I think in a sense I never forgave them for having led me astray in my own particular Musical thinking and natural inclinations.

... and, indeed, his diary entry for the week before his sixteenth birthday reads:

Brahms has gone up one place in my list of Composers. Beethoven is still first, and I think always will be, Bach and Brahms comes next, I don't know which.

Britten still writes respectfully of Brahms when he is twenty, and it isn't until 7th March 1935 (when he is 21) that he writes:

I came out of a concert he went to] before the Brahms - I can't stand B. these days. ---- [Later that same evening, Britten & some friends play Piano Quartets: Schumann good in small spots - Brahms (C minor) bad in large spots.

[teamsaint]

I suspect that BB knew full well that record shop browsers working in alphabetical fashion, ( what other way is there?) would inevitably stop at Brahms, be tempted by the delights in the section, and be spent up before the " Bri" shelves.
Sad but true.

probably accounts for the success of that bloke who pretended to be Albinoni, too. ( or was it Albinoni 2?)


( with apologies to the properly researched responses above.)

Edit:

Anybody needing to be convinced of Brahms genius needs to watch this piece of magic.

[Roehre]

In my top 3

[Roehre]

...

Could it be something to do with Brahms' perceived conservatism (... musical )

... please

[Stanfordian]

Aimez-vous_Brahms? is a novel by Françoise Sagan - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimez-vous_Brahms%3F but it is also a question which Benjamin Britten reportedly answered in the negative on several occasions. One work which he did approve of was the clarinet quintet, but it seems to have been the only one.

Do we have any idea why BB disliked Brahms so much? Any rational reasons? Is the music of Brahms obviously deficient to those who are in the composing business?

Hiya Dave2002,

Yes, Britten's dislike of Brahms's is often quoted. I often smile in amusement when I see works by Britten and Brahms on the same recital/concert programme. I notice that the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra is including the Britten Violin Concerto and the Brahms Third Symphony on the same programme next season.

[gurnemanz]

I wouldn't call myself a Brahmsian but I can't think of anything by him that I actually dislike.

Likewise, but not mad keen on Haydn Variations. Still discovering stuff - songs and choral works. I'm pretty sure I like a higher percentage of Brahms' works than I do of Britten's.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... please

Well, over eighty years after Schönberg's Brahms the Progressive, the myth of "Brahms the conservative" should have been blown out of the water - but it still lingers in some people's minds, so "perceived conservatism" is about right. But I doubt that this was what caused Britten's dislike - being a "perceived conservative" himself! Nor is it just (or even "mainly") the "Musically-educated" who dislike the Music - no one has ever been more Musically educated than Milton Babbitt, whose favourite composer was old Johannes. Many years ago, Michael Oliver held an entire edition of Music Weekly devoted to why Brahms aroused such diametrically opposed views from the general public. Responses to a survey suggested that his use of cross-rhythms made some people "feel ill", and complained about his "muddy" orchestration, and (what they perceive as) his over-fondness for mid-range melodies doubled at the third and/or sixth. Recently, Richard Barrett on this very Forum complained about (what he saw as) Brahms' over-fondness for adding counter-subjects to a melodic texture.

All of which strikes my ears as barmy! Greatest composer between Schubert and Schönberg - wrote some of the finest works ever imagined by the human intelligence.

[muzzer]

Love JB, for many of the reasons listed above. Coincidentally, I have also met someone named Sagan after FS, which I thought was rather cool, but no idea whether or not she loves JB..

[Ferretfancy]

I like Brahms, although I'm not particularly keen on the works for piano and strings. This seems to be chamber music which is striving to be orchestral. I like the string quartets, which are not heard often enough, and the violin sonatas are wonderful.

I think that some listeners are put off Brahms because it sometimes sounds that even when relaxed his music never seems very happy. You could not imagine him writing the scherzo to A Midsummer Night's Dream. There's always a hint of solemnity, and mostly moderate speeds, and in the case of the Haydn Variations a slight dreariness. Of course, as I say this I can immediately think of exceptions, the Handel Variations are lively enough.

[teamsaint]

IIRC, Calum Da Jazbo started a similar thread some time ago.
Lets hope he reappears soon.