Holst, Gustav (1874 - 1934)

[rauschwerk]

"All composers should pray for failure". That seems to have been Holst's motto, since he believed only failure could teach an artist anything.

Perhaps, then, he would not have been dismayed to know how little of his work is generally known nowadays. Alfred Brendel, in The Veil of Order, described The Planets as kitsch. Imogen Holst was unsparing in her condemnation of parts of this piece. It seems to me that, whether or not Holst would have cared about these criticisms, he spent the rest of his life gradually expunging all traces of 'kitsch' from his music. Eventually he achieved his late masterpiece 'Egdon Heath (a piece very dear to my heart). He must have known that it would never be popular (and difficult to programme) but I dare say he didn't give a damn. Had he lived as long as his great friend Ralph Vaughan Williams, what more might he have achieved? Might he have returned to a more accessible style? Who can say?

[BBMmk2]

Indeed, rauschwerk, we can never know. I am inclined to agree, with Tony Palmer, about Holst's work "The Cloud Messenger". I love it as well. Although, Holst himself and his daughter, Imogen, didn't think it was up to his best. in some ways I see his point, but goodness, it's still quite a composition!

[Serial_Apologist]

"All composers should pray for failure". That seems to have been Holst's motto, since he believed only failure could teach an artist anything.

Perhaps, then, he would not have been dismayed to know how little of his work is generally known nowadays. Alfred Brendel, in The Veil of Order, described The Planets as kitsch. Imogen Holst was unsparing in her condemnation of parts of this piece. It seems to me that, whether or not Holst would have cared about these criticisms, he spent the rest of his life gradually expunging all traces of 'kitsch' from his music. Eventually he achieved his late masterpiece 'Egdon Heath (a piece very dear to my heart). He must have known that it would never be popular (and difficult to programme) but I dare say he didn't give a damn. Had he lived as long as his great friend Ralph Vaughan Williams, what more might he have achieved? Might he have returned to a more accessible style? Who can say?

The scherzo from the otherwise (apparently) unwritten symphony, from right at the end of his life, says it all for me in terms of the great music Holst might have gone on to write, in full health of body as well as of mind. I weep every time I hear it.

[pastoralguy]

The Veil of Order[/I], described The Planets as kitsch.

Alfred Brendel is also quoted as saying that, in his opinion, Simon Rattle is a first class musician but he spends too much time on insignificant repertoire. Well, imho, that's fine but not everyone wants to spend all their time listening to masterpieces. One needs variety and to mock a piece that has given a tremendous amount of pleasure to a lot of people strikes me as being really quite snobbish.

[Richard Barrett]

Alfred Brendel, in The Veil of Order, described The Planets as kitsch.

Surely it's one of the most original and beautifully written orchestral pieces of the early 20th century? (although I generally miss out "Jupiter" when I listen to it)

[BBMmk2]

Surely it's one of the most original and beautifully written orchestral pieces of the early 20th century? (although I generally miss out "Jupiter" when I listen to it)

Quite so Richard Barrett. I remember another Prom concert, many years ago, when Haitinkl took the helm to conduct The Planets. About one of the best performances I have seen or heard. Especially right at the end, when the women's choir enters, who were right up in the gods, and they sounded quite ethereal.

[rauschwerk]

Surely it's one of the most original and beautifully written orchestral pieces of the early 20th century? (although I generally miss out "Jupiter" when I listen to it)

Absolutely! I loved it in my youth and still do. I would defend (perhaps not quite to the death) Alfred Brendel's right to utter a load of carp, but that is what he utters in respect of this piece (though I'm not sure that he actually means to mock). The Planets goes round in my head a lot, and I keep thinking it's time I again heard it live. I don't miss out Jupiter, which contains one of my favourite passages: the lead back from the central tune to the reprise of the opening.

[Pabmusic]

Surely it's one of the most original and beautifully written orchestral pieces of the early 20th century? (although I generally miss out "Jupiter" when I listen to it)

Why leave out Jupiter?

It is original, though it was probably inspired by Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra (Holst was at the first British performance, owned a score and soon began Seven Pieces for Large Orchestra - aka The Planets)

[Richard Barrett]

Why leave out Jupiter?

I just don't like it. I don't like "Mars" much either, come to think of it. Maybe it's because their expressive characters are too "obvious".

[Conchis]

The Planets Suite is the way in to orchestral music for a lot of people. I'm sure for many it's the only 'non-pop' recording they own.

I used to think of Mars as 'the Quatermass music', as did many others, I'm sure.

I hardly ever listen to it now. Richard's objection to it is interesting: definitely a point to consider.


Alfred Brendel also has a point about Rattle, one that I'd partially agree with (although SR isn't one of my favourite conductors). We don't need Rattle/BPO recordings of Carmina Burana or Carmen but as he is one of the few big names in non-pop music at the moment (and one of the few still with a contract), EMI/Warner are probably very keen for him to record popular repertoire.

[Pabmusic]

I just don't like it...

The best reason, I suppose.

[Parry1912]

I remember another Prom concert, many years ago, when Haitinkl took the helm to conduct The Planets. About one of the best performances I have seen or heard. Especially right at the end, when the women's choir enters, who were right up in the gods, and they sounded quite ethereal.

I was also at that one . The 1st half was all Walton IIRC.

[Richard Barrett]

The Planets Suite is the way in to orchestral music for a lot of people. I'm sure for many it's the only 'non-pop' recording they own.

I was myself of that cohort at one time! (Not for very long though, only until Bach (qv) intervened.) But I still think it's a wonderful piece of orchestration, again with the possible exception of the two aforementioned movements where the way the orchestra is used is also somewhat unsubtly illustrative.

[Richard Barrett]

The best reason, I suppose.

Not a very enlightening one though, I'm afraid! - mainly because it's a long time since I gave the matter any thought. I guess it's the equation of "joy" with jolly folk dancing and lusty hymn-singing that sinks my boat.

[Serial_Apologist]

I was at the 1966 Proms performance of The Planets, up in "the gods", when the bottom notes of the organ at the conclusion to the Saturn movement precipitated a sudden kerfuffle right behind me: a young woman having an epileptic fit!

I always think the work's orchestration to be one of the finest illustrations of the influence of French Impressionism on British composers at the time - one can also cite the opening and concluding passages of RVW's London Symphony - Ravel's especially. It always astonishes me how RVW and Holst felt able to make disparaging comments about Ravel's orchestration of his own Vales Nobles et Sentimentales.