Elgar (1857-1934)

[Cockney Sparrow]

Don't ignore the Naxos discs of the symphonies, either. George Hurst does No. 1, Ted Downes No. 2. (Wasn't Hurst going to do both, but became ill?) They are lovely fresh performances by two unsung veterans.

Very much agree as to the Naxos discs. Also, I'm listening presently (on Naxos Music Library) to the EMI (Warner) Barbirolli 2 Symphony set - and I wonder why I waited until now, the performances seems so right, together with the wonderful Silvestri "in the South". Per the River People its a digitally remastered version - lucky us!. (The sound of Mackerras seems very boxy - sorry - for me, it doesn't stand out against its competitors if only for that reason).

[visualnickmos]

I agree about the Hurst Elgar 1 - wonderful! Hurst could be a very difficult man who affected a Polish accent (or some such) although he was actually Scottish but of Eastern European parentage; people used to claim that he was Canadian but this was not true although he had studied in Toronto.

As to Downes: he would not conduct Elgar 1 which he considered 'jingoistic' which, of course, is nonsense. But he did seem to have affinity for Elgar 2 and his description of its slow movement as "watching a funeral through a veil" was highly emotive. He came to a very sad, but very courageous, end. Despite his left wing views he was quite happy to be 'Sir Edward' and he certainly deserved to be. He was the 4th horn in the premiere of Britten's Peter Grimes and he once admonished me for playing a 6th horn passage in Strauss's Friedenstag "as though it is a Kopprasch study" (the Kopprasch studies are wonderful for developing horn technique but deadly boring as music) I still get repeat fees for that Friedenstag recording which was in about 1972 or 73.

excellent story, and thank you for sharing it here.

[ahinton]

No mention yet of the Third Symphony; any takers?...

[Alison]

No mention yet of the Third Symphony; any takers?...

I prefer the Piano Concerto

[cloughie]

No mention yet of the Third Symphony; any takers?...

He didn't write one!

[Pabmusic]

He didn't write one!

Anthony Payne was insistent that it should not be referred to as Elgar's Third, or anything like it. He called it both "Edward Elgar: the sketches for Symphony No 3 elaborated by Anthony Payne" and in brief "Elgar/Payne Symphony No 3". It is a curiosity - a marvellously done one - but definitely not Elgar's. At best, the first movement exposition follows Elgar's short score, but since there's no more short score, that's it. Apart from that and literally half a dozen bars to open the last movement, the rest is speculation. To speak of it as if it were Elgar's is simply wrong, as Payne made clear.

[ahinton]

I prefer the Piano Concerto

I don't!

[ahinton]

He didn't write one!

No, but he did speculate that someone might come along at some point and write a "better one" (a rather odd idea since he'd not actually written one on which someone might ever try to "improve")...

[ahinton]

Anthony Payne was insistent that it should not be referred to as Elgar's Third, or anything like it. He called it both "Edward Elgar: the sketches for Symphony No 3 elaborated by Anthony Payne" and in brief "Elgar/Payne Symphony No 3". It is a curiosity - a marvellously done one - but definitely not Elgar's. At best, the first movement exposition follows Elgar's short score, but since there's no more short score, that's it. Apart from that and literally half a dozen bars to open the last movement, the rest is speculation. To speak of it as if it were Elgar's is simply wrong, as Payne made clear.

But how can we possibly know how much of it wasn't Elgar himself? I certainly believe that something most unusual was at work here, even though I have no way to begin to describe it (and I'm not in any sense seekig to encroach upon Rosemary Brown territory here, since that would be grossly inappropriate). Payne's work on this is unique and I can say no more about it, really...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I prefer the Piano Concerto

I was very disappointed in this. The elaboration/completion/tinkering by Robert Walker does Elgar a disservice, with unElgarian orchestration and a lack of real imagination. And perhaps the sketches didn't match those of the 3rd Symphony.

[Alison]

I do love the lighter Elgar though and there are some delightful melodies.

Agreed, not a work to take too seriously.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was very disappointed in this. The elaboration/completion/tinkering by Robert Walker does Elgar a disservice, with unElgarian orchestration and a lack of real imagination. And perhaps the sketches didn't match those of the 3rd Symphony.

I so agree. I remember that when the Anthony Payne talk on the Third Symphony sketches was released with a BBC Music Magazine, the Musical illustrations were a mix of orchestral excerpts and piano illustrations - it made me think what a good Piano Concerto (a la the Brahms d minor) it might have made. The "actual" Piano Concerto that appeared in the wake of the Third Symphony elaborations was, on the contrary, totally disappointing in every respect.

As for the Third Symphony elaboration itself, I greatly admire it and prefer it to not a few works that Elgar completed all on his own (though NOT, I hasten to add, either of the Symphonies). Pabs' point is a sound one - it is "Elgar/Payne" (much, much more so than the Cooke "performing version of the 'sketches' of Mahler's Tenth Symphony" is "Mahler/Cooke"): and is a credit to both those composers.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I do love the lighter Elgar though and there are some delightful melodies.

- and harmonies, too! (I adore Mina especially.)

[Pabmusic]

But how can we possibly know mow much of it wasn't Elgar himself? I certainly believe that something most unusual was at work here, even though I have no way to begin to describe it (and I'm not in any sense seekig to encroach upon Rosemary Brown territory here, since that would be grossly inappropriate). Payne's work on this is unique and I can say no more about it, really...

We have the sketches that Payne worked on. Some were even published in the 1930s in The Listener and in Willy Reed's Elgar as I Knew Him. Radio 3 broadcast the useable skeches on orchestra and piano(and that was reissued with the BBCMM). Payne recorded a disc explaining what he did, and he also wrote a detailed book about it. I am fortunate in having the complete sketches as well (copied from the BBC Archives) and I can vouch for what a true pig's ear they constitute. So we have a very good idea of what was done. Elgar left almost nothing usable, nor much idea of where anything would go. What Payne did is worthy of great praise, but it can hardly represent Elgar. Many sections are by Payne himself, and The entire 'patrol' ending is pure speculation, with not even a sketch to go on. But the incidental music to King Arthur was useful since Elgar was obviously intending to use much of it.

[EdgeleyRob]

I was very disappointed in this. The elaboration/completion/tinkering by Robert Walker does Elgar a disservice, with unElgarian orchestration and a lack of real imagination. And perhaps the sketches didn't match those of the 3rd Symphony.