New Sub-Forum: Composers

[oddoneout]

We're doomed!

Only if you inhabit planet CFM I would suggest - and those inhabitants don't know they're doomed so it doesn't matter...
A couple of things caught my eye from a brief skim

the classical music of the 21st century incorporates styles and influences from all that came before it,

as if that's never been done before.

Sir James MacMillan is one of the most eminent Scottish classical musicians of the 21st century.

talk about damning with faint praise - how large is the pool in which he is deemed a big fish? And that is not intended to be derogatory about either Scottish musicians or James MacM himself.

In 2022, MacMillan also composed ‘Who shall separate us?’ for the funeral service of Queen Elizabeth II.

It was composed in 2011, at her request.

[french frank]

We're doomed!

Legends in their lifetime.

[ahinton]

We're doomed!

Not unless "we" take this seriously and literally rather than as the joke as which I confess I could not help but read it!

I can't add much to oddoneout's response here, except to say that I'd not previously encountered 3. or 6. in this list (for all that I had of course encountered the film concerned - I'd just not taken note of the name).

The only factor that begins to persuade me that taking this as a joke might perhaps not necessarily be the right thing to do is that 7., 8. & 9. are at least worthy of some serious attention as composers, even though 8. seems to have written little outside the movie / TV world (whereas, for example, the widely lauded John Williams has done but tends to disappoint when he abandons the cinema for the concert hall - at least in my experience). As to 10., I cannot immediately call to mind anyone with so much obvious talent who misuses it so appallingly amd has permitted it to help develop so truculent a stance of closed-minded arrogance, neither of which seem sadly to show any signs of abating.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not unless "we" take this seriously and literally rather than as the joke as which I confess I could not help but read it!

I can't add much to oddoneout's response here, except to say that I'd not previously encountered 3. or 6. in this list (for all that I had of course encountered the film concerned - I'd just not taken note of the name).

The only factor that begins to persuade me that taking this as a joke might perhaps not necessarily be the right thing to do is that 7., 8. & 9. are at least worthy of some serious attention as composers, even though 8. seems to have written little outside the movie / TV world (whereas, for example, the widely lauded John Williams has done but tends to disappoint when he abandons the cinema for the concert hall - at least in my experience). As to 10., I cannot immediately call to mind anyone with so much obvious talent who misuses it so appallingly amd has permitted it to help develop so truculent a stance of closed-minded arrogance, neither of which seem sadly to show any signs of abating.

For those late to this thread what post on it are you referring to ?

[RichardB]

We're doomed!

Gu∂nadottir's music for the Chernobyl series was very impressive (although the music for Joker wasn't so different, which isn't a good sign), I don't know anything about Shimamura or Deutscher, though the description of their work doesn't make me want to do so, and I have no time for any of the others. Anyway, if I were going to compile a list of the most interesting living composers, over all "genres", I wouldn't choose any of them. This probably has something to do with my view of the contemporary music scene not being limited to Hollywood and "Classical Music" and a traditional view of what a "composer" is and does. The only composer there from a jazz-related background is Wynton Marsalis, who has vociferously rejected everything that's happened in that tradition since the 1950s, in a parallel to the outspoken conservatism of MacMillan. It's all "capitalist realism", constrained in its creativity by forces as powerful if not more so than the cultural policies of the Soviet Union, even if the penalties for not conforming are less brutal.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Thoroughly depressing indeed, from what I've heard by them mostly composers of very anonymous bland music, to put it mildely. I like some of MacMillan's music, at least the works written up to around 15 years ago, but since then seems to have made very little impression on me. The lack of a convincing whole & inability to create works that show any real sustained grasp of compositional craft (MacMillan excepted) is disturbing. As seems to be the case in many spheres of life these days, its not necessarily talent/ability, more who you know & what you look like. But then I'm fairly conservative music wise.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thoroughly depressing indeed, from what I've heard by them mostly composers of very anonymous bland music, to put it mildely. I like some of MacMillan's music, at least the works written up to around 15 years ago, but since then seems to have made very little impression on me. The lack of a convincing whole & inability to create works that show any real sustained grasp of compositional craft (MacMillan excepted) is disturbing. As seems to be the case in many spheres of life these days, its not necessarily talent/ability, more who you know & what you look like. But then I'm fairly conservative music wise.

Or, equally, what you know and who you sound like.

[RichardB]

inability to create works that show any real sustained grasp of compositional craft

But if what you're doing is creating film scores or background music more generally, those things aren't relevant. The list seems to be divided between composers writing music as an accompaniment to something else, and composers whose work could have been written at any time in the last 50 years. But that's exactly the kind of thing CFM exists for.

[ahinton]

For those late to this thread what post on it are you referring to ?

#166.

[Ein Heldenleben]

#166.

Thanks AH but this has done little for my blood pressure already stressed by the inter rail mobile app.

With the exception of Wynton M (early albums) and James M it’s an almost perfect list of those I prefer to avoid.

Still an amusing way of spending a national Grid 90 minute saver session.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But that's exactly the kind of thing CFM exists for.

Sadly, we no longer know the reason for the BBC’s existence at the present time. All it is seems to have done in recent decades it to copy other providers, irrespective of their quality:
Radio 1: copy of Radio Caroline and other pirate stations;
Breakfast TV: copied from ITV, except that they cleverly did this at lightning speed and managed to start before the initiators;
East Enders: a southern version of Coronation Street;
Radio 3 mornings: Classic FM minus adverts.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Sadly, we no longer know the reason for the BBC’s existence at the present time. All it is seems to have done in recent decades it to copy other providers, irrespective of their quality:
Radio 1: copy of Radio Caroline and other pirate stations;
Breakfast TV: copied from ITV, except that they cleverly did this at lightning speed and managed to start before the initiators;
East Enders: a southern version of Coronation Street;
Radio 3 mornings: Classic FM minus adverts.

Some truth in what you say except that Breakfast Time was a highly professional operation and TVAM a complete shambles until Greg Dyke came along.

[kernelbogey]

We're doomed!

Contemporary music is far from my comfort zone, in many ways, but I was curious about the responses to Bryn's #165, which took me to the CFM list; thence to Alma Deutscher, who is new to me. I listened to the whole of her Waltz of the Sirens, together with her spoken introduction, recorded at Carnegie Hall in late 2019. I enjoyed it, and - with the exception of the opening, which she was at pains to explain - I thought her waltzes were of a comparable standard to many from the Strauss family.

A few years ago, I read in the Good Food Guide an explanation of its inclusion of Fish and Chip shops, which was that they are not to be judged by comparison with The Fat Duck or Noma, but with reference to other Fish and Chip shops.

With utmost respect ot my fellow Forumistas, I suggest that the definition of 'music' by society in general has been so radically altered by the media (film, television, the internet et cetera) that standards themselves have to be revised. I'm not saying that Alma Deutscher composes musical fish and chips, but I did think her waltzes were competently composed and, to me, enjoyable.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Contemporary music is far from my comfort zone, in many ways, but I was curious about the responses to Bryn's #165, which took me to the CFM list; thence to Alma Deutscher, who is new to me. I listened to the whole of her Waltz of the Sirens, together with her spoken introduction, recorded at Carnegie Hall in late 2019. I enjoyed it, and - with the exception of the opening, which she was at pains to explain - I thought her waltzes were of a comparable standard to many from the Strauss family.

A few years ago, I read in the Good Food Guide an explanation of its inclusion of Fish and Chip shops, which was that they are not to be judged by comparison with The Fat Duck or Noma, but with reference to other Fish and Chip shops.

With utmost respect ot my fellow Forumistas, I suggest that the definition of 'music' by society in general has been so radically altered by the media (film, television, the internet et cetera) that standards themselves have to be revised. I'm not saying that Alma Deutscher composes musical fish and chips, but I did think her waltzes were competently composed and, to me, enjoyable.

I suppose what we are mourning is the death of the symphonic tradition and indeed the iconoclasts who wanted to strike a different path from that . The problem with Zimmer, Richter et al is that it all works when there are slo mo shots of whales to accompany it but not as stand alone music. Actually it doesn’t even work all that well as film music - it’s vastly overblown, harmonically repetitive and cliche ridden . Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich were better at writing that as well.

[smittims]

What struck me about Siena Linton's article is the age-old difficulty of using words about music. Phrases such as 'greatest composers' , 'stand-out composers', 'brilliant music', 'potential to shape', and 'greatest impact' are notoriously vague and elusive. I wondered in the end if it had really said anything useful.

What the composers she mentions have in common is acclaim; in the words of many a Radio3 announcer, they are 'award-winning'. But that alone doesn't mean that their music is any good or even worth listening to. There's already an overabundance of music that a lot of people don't mind hearing, perhaps while texting, eating or laughing. The fact that someone is making money out of it isn't a measure of its artistic worth.