Martinů, Bohuslav (1890-1959)

[Pulcinella]

Just in time...

That's what I suddenly thought too, just after I'd posted.

[BBMmk2]

Following on from JLW's chat about Martinu's sixth and Behlohlavek's cycle, I can wholeheartedly(as usual, it seems with JLW!), Agree! Behlolavek has the measure of these works, like no-one else!

[jayne lee wilson]

It doesn't become you to be so patronising. I read every word of your post and still you and I are hearing different things. Same goes for your post quoted here. One person's sense of "musicality" or lack thereof doesn't necessarily transfer to another person. No doubt you find your own flowery and feverish verbosity totally convincing, but pompous condescension on the level of "Music is about so much more than the score... . Clarity or "detail" is only the beginning" is really no more than laughable in this context.

I said "lacking real rhythmic life or telling inner-voice detail". You said "You are wrong IMO. Detail is exactly what these recordings have". Dismissively patronising itself, AND a misquote, AND failing to remember how I'd already dealt with this on the recent BaL 6th Symphony thread. I then go on to give specific examples from several Martinu recordings, trying to explain how I respond to them and feel about them. Hardly anyone else ever bothers to do this, even after a BaL. My dislike of the ubiquitous Jarvi seemed to need further detail (for anyone reading, not for your sole delectations) so I gave it for others to seek out, compare, agree with or not, and without such closely-reported listening, opinions and responses have little interest, we're back to like/dislike again. I'll leave to others to judge your literary-critical response to my writing, but I certainly never descend to calling anyone's comments "laughable". As for "flowery", a cliché often used of Shakespeare's style by those who haven't read much of it, it seems inapt to #23, where I spend most of my time on specific musical comparisons. I've only indulged two or three sentences of metaphorical evocations.
(As I'm often feverish with enthusiasm, I object less to this occasional epithet).

But it would be a shame never to attempt evocation of mood or atmosphere by metaphorical or other linguistic tropes, whether of wine or weather, colour or landscape. It's a challenge, a good buzz, a whole lotta fun. I find much music writing & reviewing dull, repetitive and predictable precisely for the absence of such features and anyway - conductors often indulge in it themselves: witness Harnoncourt's notes to his VCM Haydn Paris Symphonies set...

[Richard Barrett]

I certainly never descend to calling anyone's comments "laughable".

The thing is: you don't own this music. Nobody does. You don't hear detail or musicality in Järvi's recordings of these works. I do. You misquote me by the way - I didn't say "You are wrong IMO". I said "That is simply not true IMO". That is to say: you are (obviously) not "wrong" as far as your own impressions go. However I don't find that your impressions coincide with mine, which is OK as far as it goes, but also I find that you express them in a way which suggests anyone who has impressions different from yours is not as sensitive as you are. I find your comments dismissive of an interpretation and recording whose priorities with this music are not yours. Perhaps that is unfair of me. Returning to your "Music is about so much more than the score... . Clarity or "detail" is only the beginning", what I find laughable about it in this context is the implication that anyone reading your posts isn't already going to know these things. Perhaps I am mistaken about this.

[jayne lee wilson]

The thing is: you don't own this music. Nobody does. You don't hear detail or musicality in Järvi's recordings of these works. I do. You misquote me by the way - I didn't say "You are wrong IMO". I said "That is simply not true IMO". That is to say: you are (obviously) not "wrong" as far as your own impressions go. However I don't find that your impressions coincide with mine, which is OK as far as it goes, but also I find that you express them in a way which suggests anyone who has impressions different from yours is not as sensitive as you are. I find your comments dismissive of an interpretation and recording whose priorities with this music are not yours. Perhaps that is unfair of me. Returning to your "Music is about so much more than the score... . Clarity or "detail" is only the beginning", what I find laughable about it in this context is the implication that anyone reading your posts isn't already going to know these things. Perhaps I am mistaken about this.

But that's why I've recently taken to giving very specific musical examples - which no-one else does, even in response: how can they be anyone else's impressions but mine? Why shouldn't I express them confidently or colorfully? It would be better to give such examples yourself rather than accuse me of claiming superior sensitivity or whatever else. If I feel a given conductor expresses the music more fully than another, what on earth can be wrong with telling others about that?

A few weeks ago I was accused of not using "IMO" or "For me" or YMMV enough. Now I tend to use them more often than I'd like, and I'm STILL being told off for participating in too... (what, undemocratic?) a style. My enthusiam sure gets a tough ride around here! Slapped down by composers and anonymous professors.

As for "You are wrong IMO". Yes, sorry, but that is a bleakly funny freudian slip of mine, as a few weeks ago someone else was telling me repeatedly "you are wrong, you are wrong...etc." Which as I recall I didn't take terribly well.......
So your comment "this is simply not true IMO" dismissively expressive of YOUR superiority, reminded me uncomfortably of that earlier upset. Last time, I was told "you need the reference" i.e the musical examples to support any given argument or opinion. I always gave them anyway, now give even more and yet... here we go again...
Is all that close-listening, or reporting of such (subjectively, ymmv, imo, for me, blue in the bloody face..) just a waste of time around here?

God, I wouldn't be the first female to find she has to work five times as hard to get anywhere in yet another male-dominated forum, and then STILL picks up the flak....

[EdgeleyRob]

Apart from the Symphonies the only Martinu I really know is the solo piano music.
Well worth exploring IMO,as an introduction I would suggest the sonata,etudes and polkas,fantaisie et toccata on Naxos,Giorgio Koukl.

[Richard Barrett]

God, I wouldn't be the first female to find she has to work five times as hard to get anywhere in yet another male-dominated forum, and then STILL picks up the flak....

This has nothing to do with your gender! If you can find an example of my treating women with less respect than men on this forum then let's see it. What do you mean by "get anywhere", by the way? Where do you want to get?

Anyway: it isn't your "enthusiasm" that I'm criticising (not "slapping down"), it's the implication you make about others' enthusiasm or lack thereof. I don't claim any general superiority. I do claim however to know this particular music quite well and to have ideas about what is meaningful and valuable about it, which I think I've expressed clearly enough so far. I started this thread precisely in order to share an enthusiasm and get a discussion going on Martinu's music (and not specifically on comparing interpretations of it, though that seems to be what a lot of people are interested in).

[Suffolkcoastal]

The Martinu works I most enjoy and admire are:

The Greek Passion
Symphonies 1 & 3
Cello Sonata No 3
Double Concerto
String Quartet No 5
The Parables

But there isn't really a work in his entire output that I've heard which I don't find interesting. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a work that I hope to purchase a score of for study at some point along with The Prophecy of Isaiah, works that are quite unlike anything else. At one point Martinu considered calling the 6th Symphony the 'New Fantastic Symphony', and knowing the reasons through my friendship with someone who had unique insights into the composer, this seems very apt. Incidentally there are two allusions to the Berlioz in the 6th Symphony. Julietta is probably the key work in his output especially in the way it haunts so much of his remaining output.

[Beef Oven!]

The Martinu works I most enjoy and admire are:

The Greek Passion
Symphonies 1 & 3
Cello Sonata No 3
Double Concerto
String Quartet No 5
The Parables

But there isn't really a work in his entire output that I've heard which I don't find interesting. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a work that I hope to purchase a score of for study at some point along with The Prophecy of Isaiah, works that are quite unlike anything else. At one point Martinu considered calling the 6th Symphony the 'New Fantastic Symphony', and knowing the reasons through my friendship with someone who had unique insights into the composer, this seems very apt. Incidentally there are two allusions to the Berlioz in the 6th Symphony. Julietta is probably the key work in his output especially in the way it haunts so much of his remaining output.

I know the symphonies quite well, but not the string quartets, so maybe 5 is a good place to start?

[Suffolkcoastal]

The 5th is the most dramatic of the seven Beefy. Almost Bartok like in its intensity. It's from the same year as the Double Concerto and inhabits the same troubled world. Quartets 1-3 are earlier, the 1st is rather too long, the 2nd & 3rd are relatively short and Martinu is experimenting and searching for a distinct voice in them, The 4th & 6th are fine works and well worth hearing, the 7th 'Concerto da Camera' is one of the first works composed after his 'accident', and seems rather unsure of itself, but is still of interest.

[Beef Oven!]

The 5th is the most dramatic of the seven Beefy. Almost Bartok like in its intensity. It's from the same year as the Double Concerto and inhabits the same troubled world. Quartets 1-3 are earlier, the 1st is rather too long, the 2nd & 3rd are relatively short and Martinu is experimenting and searching for a distinct voice in them, The 4th & 6th are fine works and well worth hearing, the 7th 'Concerto da Camera' is one of the first works composed after his 'accident', and seems rather unsure of itself, but is still of interest.

Many thanks SC. The double concerto sounds interesting, too.

[Rolmill]

It's the vocal and choral music that grabs me, so my favourites include:

Epic of Gilgamesh
Spalicek (this is a sparkling performance and also includes the lovely Dandelion Romance)
Bouquet of Flowers
Field Mass
Madrigals - I've sung some of these (in English!) - sadly this excellent CD, combining the mixed voice madrigals with some sacred pieces, is nla it seems.

I've struggled to find a way into the Greek Passion, even with the Mackerras recording on my shelves, but must have another go soon.

[Richard Barrett]

My feeling is that with the orchestral music the non-symphonies are often more interesting than the symphonies. Gilgamesh and the Field Mass are both quite unique and wonderful works I think.

I don't know the string quartets really, but earlier today I listened to the Concerto for string quartet and orchestra (in the recording conducted by Hickox with the Endellion Quartet), a very rare combination and a work I haven't heard often. The first and third movements are interestingly-textured but somewhat generically neoclassical in sound and form, but the slow movement that separates them is something else, impassioned and disquieting in the way of Martinu's best work. The other thing I listened to today was the suite and three fragments from Julietta with Mackerras conducting (shame he didn't record more Martinu!) which are on an altogether higher level of inspiration. I don't know the opera well enough to hear where everything comes from, but that doesn't really matter, the instrumental music creates an alternative dreamworld of its own.

[Richard Barrett]

The double concerto sounds interesting, too.

You absolutely have to hear that.

[Beef Oven!]

You absolutely have to hear that.

It’s now on the list.