Martinů, Bohuslav (1890-1959)

**jayne lee wilson** · 24-09-19, 16:25

See above for the Double Concerto but caveat emptor - it is an oddity though musically excellent - and be careful how you first use it!
I do think the Frescoes have been quite lucky on record, but the best recordings take a little seeking out (or sharing on FoR3 of course...

)...

**Master Jacques** · 24-09-19, 16:28

Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

Try this stunning dark horse.... wonderful recorded sound and performances which may, to say the least, put the sonically-hard-to-tolerate Ancerl (even on the Gold Edition) ...

I have a feeling that this is tilling old ground, but I must point out again that the Gold Edition is not accepted by everyone as the ne plus ultra of Ancerl sonics, because of the monkeying-around that's gone on, especially where these earlier recordings are concerned. I happened to be listening to the Gold Edition of his Bouquet of Flowers three nights ago, on headphones, and was discombobulated by Supraphon's attempt to boost the richness of the sound by introducing fake stereo ambience - on several occasions you could audibly hear the choral image bouncing from one side to the other at the end of phrases - appalling!

The older CD masterings, if you can get hold of them, because people like me are tending to hold on to them, don't commit these sins, and are content with presenting the good old mono (or early stereo) sound as clearly as they can.

**jayne lee wilson** · 24-09-19, 16:33

When we last discussed this, I did sample the older Supraphon Ancerl, and the BNF transfers, one or two others on Qobuz.. without revelation. I still preferred the Gold Edition, which always sound very good on my system whatever the source recordings, smoother, more detailed, dynamic etc. More "there" there....

But don't miss that Arte Nova if revelations are your thing...

**Master Jacques** · 24-09-19, 17:31

Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

But don't miss that Arte Nova if revelations are your thing...

Thank you Jayne - I do have the Arte Nova CD (one of several very worthwhile Martinu exploits on that label).

**jayne lee wilson** · 24-09-19, 17:39

Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post

Thank you Jayne - I do have the Arte Nova CD (one of several very worthwhile Martinu exploits on that label).

This is a great composer for obscure one-offs and introuvables.... perfect for FoR3 then....

**Master Jacques** · 24-09-19, 17:39

Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

When we last discussed this, I did sample the older Supraphon Ancerl, and the BNF transfers, one or two others on Qobuz.. without revelation. I still preferred the Gold Edition, which always sound very good on my system whatever the source recordings, smoother, more detailed, dynamic etc. More "there" there....

Chacun a son gout, of course. But I think you would agree that you won't find that "smoother, more detailed, dynamic..." soundscape on the original LPs, or the first CD versions. It's not what Ladislav Sip and his teams were aiming at, and it is essentially produced by technical jiggery-pokery rather than lifting anything new from the - by now probably much degraded - original tapes. It embodies a modern, interventionalist philosophy which some of us clearly like more than others, which is absolutely fine.

**Master Jacques** · 24-09-19, 17:40

Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

This is a great composer for obscure one-offs and introuvables.... perfect for FoR3 then....

Very true.

**jayne lee wilson** · 24-09-19, 17:45

Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post

Chacun a son gout, of course. But I think you would agree that you won't find that "smoother, more detailed, dynamic..." soundscape on the original LPs, or the first CD versions. It's not what Ladislav Sip and his teams were aiming at, and it is essentially produced by technical jiggery-pokery rather than lifting anything new from the - by now probably much degraded - original tapes. It embodies a modern, interventionalist philosophy which some of us clearly like more than others, which is absolutely fine.

Well we don't want to draw this out, point taken of course, but IMHO, I do know the Ancerl tapings well, and the Golds (2003/4, bit younger & less degraded then!) just don't sound so manipulated here at all.... just better - more natural, really....(not just the Martinu either...)

All masterings/carriers will produce some degree of colouration/idiosyncrasy (analogue tapes & vinyl.....!).....The only way to find out for sure would be a time machine, but I don't think they been invented (yet...probably not long now...)...

**Master Jacques** · 24-09-19, 22:01

Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

Well we don't want to draw this out, point taken of course, but IMHO, I do know the Ancerl tapings well, and the Golds (2003/4, bit younger & less degraded then!) just don't sound so manipulated here at all.... just better - more natural, really.....

Jayne, I'm sure you do have the Ancerl Gold Bouquet of Flowers, coupled with J. Palenicek's subtle, humane recording of Piano Concerto No.3. Listen to the former through headphones, if you can. I promise you will hear the unnatural, stereo-ambience manipulations I'm talking about - which is quite simply "cheating" in my book!

I did revisit the Ashkenazy Basle disc, as you suggested. Alas, I'm sorry to admit that I liked it even less than first time around. Though there is plenty of adrenaline flowing, and the brazen muscle of the orchestral playing reminds me of Bryden Thomson's (to my mind equally limited) way with the symphonies, Martinu needs much more subtlety and careful balancing. That's where Ancerl was the master.

That would also be my criticism of Robert Kolinsky's piano playing. I am sure aficionados will revel in his technique, but I found his interpretations (especially of Incantation) little better than showy, barnstorming virtuosity. Compare what (say) Ohlsen does with the ethereal final bars of the first movement, with the prosaic digital exercise Kolinsky gives us. He fatally lacks poetry and intelligence, which are every bit as necessary as muscle to this elusive, phosphorescent score. I'm sure I'm missing something, but there we are.

**jayne lee wilson** · 24-09-19, 23:09

My ears (especially the left ear) can't cope with any headphones at all....just too close...in-head... (even those big rectangular Stax earspeakers, astounding though they are...).

So - through the usual ATC/Harbeth setup on the Flowers...(I hadn't done this specific comparison before): the earlier Supraphon lossless (via Qobuz, c/w No.6) sounded a bit fierce on peaks, cramped & 2-dimensional, if fairly well-balanced, rhythmically good and dynamic enough for mono....musically engaging at least.

The Ancerl Gold obviously more spacious, clearer detail, easier on the ears, and not "fake-stereo".... (akin to the Pristine "Ambient Stereo" transfers of other 50s recordings etc (which tend to sound more like "mono with some acoustic presence" to me...). Crucially, at higher volumes - through speakers in a fairly big room - they do open up very well...

Take the intrada (track 8 on both)... on my system, the Gold Edition is clearly - livelier, better defined, better presence & detail, and the resonance (slightly curtailed on the earlier release) sounds to me more typical of innumerable much later Rudolfinum Supraphon records, Gold or not....the extra depth/perspective is striking (a clear gain), but not "artificial" though. Perhaps it loses some warmth to the earlier transfer; but as you increase volume the earlier one becomes harder to tolerate. Horses for courses...

But but but! .... the difference between them wasn't huge, really. You might prefer either on a given system, a given balance, with given ears. But subjectively I feel - the more the system reveals, the higher the volume, the better the Gold Edition tends to sound....

Your response to Koukl and Kolinsky shows how we differ in our take on Martinu....so it goes....
I hope that CzechCZ set finds a rapprochement....
(Palenicek in No.3 - wonderful...!)

***
The thing with balance is....whether one auditions different masterings or hifi components, one tends to favour the balance that pleases the ear... i.e, the one that allows longer-term listening, invites aural continuation... then as the ears adjust, the ear/brain perception will find more and more in that given system/recording.
If it seems harsh or cramped, the ears, the brain and the musical heart tend away....listening stops...

Some of the best hifi components I ever heard (some of which I ended up living with) seemed almost too laid-back or reserved initially...

**Master Jacques** · 25-09-19, 09:19

Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

(Palenicek in No.3 - wonderful...!)

I'm glad we can agree without needing to differ on that point at least!

I'm sorry that headphones are a no-no for you: for better or worse, they are useful for highlighting those cases (as here with Bouquet of Flowers) where fake stereo ambience has been injected into good mono recordings. Although this is more subtle than the old Decca Eclipse LP stereo mode was, it's equally distracting once you become aware of it. But as you say, it is not "one size fits all" as far as our individual hearing is concerned, let alone what we're listening through.

That Ondine/Ashkenazy/Martinu disc will retain its place in my collection for the performance of Overture, as an alternative perspective to Belohlavek's more subtle and witty reading on his early, valuable Supraphon collection. Otherwise, it's too much brawn and not enough beef for my tastes.

**Bryn** · 26-09-19, 13:12

The Panocha Quartet set arrived today, a "Used: Very Good" set from dr-pill, via amazon.co.uk. I mention the vendor due to the particularly good packaging. The triple-CD jewel case was surrounded with a strip of dense black foam and the whole wrapped in several layers of black polythene film (no adhesive tape used, so the film can be reused). Full marks, I'd say.

**Master Jacques** · 27-09-19, 13:53

Yes Bryn, I've been a satisfied buyer from dr-pill on amazon too. It's a pleasure when vendors take such care, and even enhances my pleasure in listening to a CD, when I know it's come from "a good home"!

Not that the Panochas in Martinu need much enhancement, given their superior excellence in this music.