Bartok (1881 - 1945)

[Richard Barrett]

Not forgetting the Kontarsky brothers (with Christoph Caskel and Heinz Koenig) in the Sonata, which is where I've decided to begin.

[Bryn]

Yes indeed. I was just looking through this thread to see what had already been said because on Friday evening I was at a concert performance of Bluebeard and my previous must-get-to-know-it-better attitude to the work suddenly expanded into a much more intense involvement, and now it seems to be time for me to immerse myself in Bartók's work for a while, which I've never really done. My knowledge of his piano music is extremely sketchy and I've never got to grips with the string quartets or the first two piano concertos. On the other hand the Music for..., the early Four Pieces for orchestra, the Sonata for two pianos and percussion (and its orchestral version, which Boulez makes a very convincing case for I think), the 3rd Piano Concerto and about 50% of the Concerto for Orchestra have been among my favourites for as long as I can remember. I was strongly affected early on by reading Ernő Lendvai's analysis of proportional systems in Bartók's music. Yesterday I listened to Boulez' second recording of Bluebeard (preceded by his Four Pieces) and was bowled over again.

So here goes. I think Pierre Boulez, the Hagen Quartet and Zoltán Kocsis will be my guides.

A few more words about Bluebeard. To my mind none of it is "happening", and the fairytale serves as an "archetypal" structure through which a confrontation between an individual and the seemingly autonomous contents of his (and it could just as well have been her) subconscious is enacted and eventually left (once more) unresolved. I guess a similar thing might be said about Bartók's other stage works, but that will require some further thought and listening.

For the string quartets, you could do worse than start off with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EebTf9dOBPM . There is also the only surviving recording of a radio broadcast on the First Quartet, to be found as a bonus in the Fine Arts Quartet's survey of the quartets on Music and Arts Programs of America. Those Fine Arts recordings, in their Saga LP manifestation, were my ear and mind-expanding introduction to the works.

[Richard Barrett]

It isn't that I don't know his string quartets, just that so far what they could mean to me has been unclear. I love the sound of the Hagens though. Anything they play is OK with me when they play it. (For that reason I wish they would get around to recording Schoenberg.)

But anyway... while the Sonata for two pianos and percussion is a radical enough piece in itself, I think it could be argued that the later orchestral version is even more so, using an almost Berio-like technique of employing the orchestra as an extension of the solo parts, which remain unchanged (is that exactly true? I'm not completely sure) while now throwing off resonances and colourations in many different directions. It's a great shame this piece is such a rarity in concert programmes and that there seems to be such a consensus that it's inferior to the piece it's based on.

[Bryn]

It isn't that I don't know his string quartets, just that so far what they could mean to me has been unclear. I love the sound of the Hagens though. Anything they play is OK with me when they play it. (For that reason I wish they would get around to recording Schoenberg.)

But anyway... while the Sonata for two pianos and percussion is a radical enough piece in itself, I think it could be argued that the later orchestral version is even more so, using an almost Berio-like technique of employing the orchestra as an extension of the solo parts, which remain unchanged (is that exactly true? I'm not completely sure) while now throwing off resonances and colourations in many different directions. It's a great shame this piece is such a rarity in concert programmes and that there seems to be such a consensus that it's inferior to the piece it's based on.

Hmm. I will have to give the Concerto for 2 Pianos, Percussion and Orchestra anaother listen, via the Boulez recording. I have tended to think of it as an inflation with mainly remunerative considerations in the composer's mind, even though any such intention turned out to be in vain.

[Richard Barrett]

mainly remunerative considerations in the composer's mind

Such intentions don't in themselves necessarily have a deleterious effect on the results of course.

[Bryn]

Such intentions don't in themselves necessarily have a deleterious effect on the results of course.

As I say, I will listen to it again, and not just the boulez. I also have the Berntein and Zinman recordings to hand, the latter having been chosen by Universal to represent the work in their 'Decca' complete Bartok box.

[Pulcinella]

Richard: You spoke highly of the Stravinsky recordings in the Gielen 1967–2014 set. There are three Bartok CDs in the set too, but perhaps pieces that don't appeal as much (Wooden Prince, Concerto for orchestra, Four pieces, Violin concerto 1, Music for SPC, Dance suite, PC 2, Miraculous Mandarin).

[Richard Barrett]

Richard: You spoke highly of the Stravinsky recordings in the Gielen 1967–2014 set. There are three Bartok CDs in the set too, but perhaps pieces that don't appeal as much (Wooden Prince, Concerto for orchestra, Four pieces, Violin concerto 1, Music for SPC, Dance suite, PC 2, Miraculous Mandarin).

Those are excellent too, although I haven't yet listened to all of them. I was more interested in the Stravinsky when I started listening to the set only because I realised that at some point I would need to devote some time to making a major reassessment of Bartók, and I hadn't yet reached that point! Now it seems that I have.

[Serial_Apologist]

One thing that has been suggested is that the stage works (in particular) mirror the complex psychology underlying Bartok's relations with women - a state of mind already reflected in the playful skipping waltz that is the last of the Bagatelles turning within the space of a year into the angry bluster of the orchestrated version that replaced the second movement of the first violin concerto to make up the "Two Images" - which one will remember was withdrawn following the breakup of the relationship with the teenage virtuoso to whom it had been dedicated. Who "is" the "over-inquisitive" woman who succumbs to the Duke's charms? By the time of "The Wooden Prince" (1914) she has become one who gives in to what the author perceives as the most artificial ("superficial") aspects of male attractiveness: appearance and status; and by the "Miraculous Mandarin" (1919) a mere tart who has to be punished for her dependence on minders to protect her, and in the end has to be punished by being raped when the disingenuously treated "other" refuses to submit to her accomplices by refusing to die until she relents by acceding to her own rape.

Incidentally, something similar in the image presented of women is shown in Schoenberg's "Die Gluechliche Hand", a near-contemporary work, not a million miles away in aesthetic: both works heavily influenced by Strauss's "Salome" and "Elektra", and not without parallel significance there either.

[Richard Barrett]

Who "is" the "over-inquisitive" woman who succumbs to the Duke's charms? By the time of "The Wooden Prince" (1914) she has become one who gives in to what the author perceives as the most artificial ("superficial") aspects of male attractiveness: appearance and status; and by the "Miraculous Mandarin" (1919) a mere tart who has to be punished for her dependence on minders to protect her, and in the end has to be punished by being raped when the disingenuously treated "other" refuses to submit to her accomplices by refusing to die until she relents by acceding to her own rape.

Now see this is something that bothers me considerably, hence my interpretation of the opera as outlined above. I don't know the background to the ballets well enough to comment in more than superficial generalities, but I'm always very hesitant anyway to make too easy equations between an artist's work and his/her private life, as if musical composition were inevitably going to be some kind of cryptic autobiography. I think I need to do some more research on such matters in relation to Bartók. He seems in many respects to have been a relatively progressive kind of thinker.

[Richard Barrett]

Continuing my Bartók survey, I've been listening today to the two ballets (conducted by Boulez), without any reference to the scenarios, and, while the virtuoso orchestration (especially in the Mandarin) is consistently fascinating, I don't find the sonic/structural concept of either as original and striking as in the opera, and perhaps this is because both works rely too heavily on illustrating their underlying narrative. This is probably a problem with ballet scores in general, and those I find most engaging (Le sacre, Les Noces, Agon, Apollo, Perséphone for example, I don't think there would be many to add to those) tend to be those that for one reason or another (including having a vocal component) aren't tied down to illustrating their choreography. But there again if I could feel engaged with the scenarios of Bartók's ballets maybe that wouldn't be a problem.