Scriabin, Alexander (1872-1915)

[RichardB]

over-dependence on that elaborated Tristan motif chord

IMO that is quite an overstatement... although some of Scriabin's earlier music shows its Wagnerian roots quite clearly, his "mystic chord" is I think on another level of musical thinking, in that (I believe) he is no longer thinking of it as something that sounds like it needs "resolution". As for over-dependence, well, you can also say that tonal music is over-dependent on triads. Scriabin's harmony, from the 6th Sonata onwards, surely represents an alternative pathway out of tonality altogether, and, in view of late 20th century developments, quite a forward-looking one, in its possible derivation from an approximation to the 7th-13th partials of a natural harmonic series.

[RichardB]

This is the vers la flamme for me

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A0nrg7Lqfak

It's certainly awe-inspiring, although one might wish that he'd remembered more of the notes that Scriabin actually wrote!

[Joseph K]

IMO that is quite an overstatement... although some of Scriabin's earlier music shows its Wagnerian roots quite clearly, his "mystic chord" is I think on another level of musical thinking, in that (I believe) he is no longer thinking of it as something that sounds like it needs "resolution". As for over-dependence, well, you can also say that tonal music is over-dependent on triads. Scriabin's harmony, from the 6th Sonata onwards, surely represents an alternative pathway out of tonality altogether, and, in view of late 20th century developments, quite a forward-looking one, in its possible derivation from an approximation to the 7th-13th partials of a natural harmonic series.

Well-put. One person's overdependence is another's consistency of harmony. And as you say, it is a very forward-looking conception of harmony, a possible antecedent of spectralist thinking.

I would have to add that the sheer sensuous otherworldly ecstasy (and all the other qualities I list in #30) that Scriabin's music often induces in me or that I get from it is such as to make me quite impervious to other people's criticisms of it, since these just appear too sublunary, they just don't compute (or at least that is the case in my current mindset!)

[Joseph K]

Just listened to sonatas 5-7, Hamelin. These are hard to fault really, and, following the scores of these works as I do, one can hardly be unaware of what incredible technique is involved, so it feels a bit churlish to find fault, especially for such a nebulous concept as 'atmosphere' but I would say that numbers 6 and 7 are somewhat lacking in that area - something about his or his piano's tone, I'm not sure.

[Serial_Apologist]

IMO that is quite an overstatement... although some of Scriabin's earlier music shows its Wagnerian roots quite clearly, his "mystic chord" is I think on another level of musical thinking, in that (I believe) he is no longer thinking of it as something that sounds like it needs "resolution". As for over-dependence, well, you can also say that tonal music is over-dependent on triads. Scriabin's harmony, from the 6th Sonata onwards, surely represents an alternative pathway out of tonality altogether, and, in view of late 20th century developments, quite a forward-looking one, in its possible derivation from an approximation to the 7th-13th partials of a natural harmonic series.

For me it's a limiting direction, unless placed in more heterogeneous harmonic contexts (as in Szymanowsky) though I take your point about its implications re tonal rootedness.

[Serial_Apologist]

One person's overdependence is another's consistency of harmony. And as you say, it is a very forward-looking conception of harmony, a possible antecedent of spectralist thinking.

Or limitation. For antecedents of spectralism I would cite Messiaen, though you would be right in pointing out that Scriabin was on the way there 18 years earlier!

[RichardB]

For antecedents of spectralism I would cite Messiaen

How is that? Ravel (in Daphnis et Chloé) I can see.

[Serial_Apologist]

How is that? Ravel (in Daphnis et Chloé) I can see.

Messiaen aggregates and superimposes polymodal chord masses to achieve resonances which sound proto-spectralist to my ears, at any rate. It seems to be a matter of obtaining overtones from the "clash" of resonances produced by pitch combinations, irrespective of instrumentation. This as early as one of the "Préludes" composed when he was only 19, titled "Sang de Joie et Larmes d'adieu" if I remember correctly, and in the "Offrandes" for either organ or full orchestra of a year or so later. It becomes more obvious in works written in the early 1960s such as "Chronochromie", "Couleurs de la Cite Celeste" and "Et Exspecto Resurrectum Mortuonem". I ask myself if Debussy wasn't also a harbinger of spectralism in a "nebulous" piece such as "Brouillards" from the "Préludes". Apologies if titles or spellings are a bit wrong - I should really be in bed!

[RichardB]

It seems to be a matter of obtaining overtones from the "clash" of resonances produced by pitch combinations, irrespective of instrumentation.

I think it could be said that while Messiaen was interested in harmony as a generator of timbre, the spectralists are interested in timbre as a generator of harmony. Messiaen's concentration on pitch and pitch-relationships is the sort of approach that spectralism could be described as a reaction against. While it's a stretch to describe Scriabin's music as "spectral", especially since, like Messiaen, he was committed to equal temperament as the basis for his harmonic thinking, he was interested in the idea of a composition evolving from a single complex sound, which brings him much closer to their concerns, with their stated origins in things like Stockhausen's Stimmung and Scelsi's meditations on single pitches. I should be in bed too!

[ahinton]

Messiaen aggregates and superimposes polymodal chord masses to achieve resonances which sound proto-spectralist to my ears, at any rate. It seems to be a matter of obtaining overtones from the "clash" of resonances produced by pitch combinations, irrespective of instrumentation. This as early as one of the "Préludes" composed when he was only 19, titled "Sang de Joie et Larmes d'adieu" if I remember correctly, and in the "Offrandes" for either organ or full orchestra of a year or so later. It becomes more obvious in works written in the early 1960s such as "Chronochromie", "Couleurs de la Cite Celeste" and "Et Exspecto Resurrectum Mortuonem". I ask myself if Debussy wasn't also a harbinger of spectralism in a "nebulous" piece such as "Brouillards" from the "Préludes". Apologies if titles or spellings are a bit wrong - I should really be in bed!

It's Cloches d'angoisses et larmes d'adieu, actually (Bells of anguish and tears of farewell) - from an extraordinary set of pieces for one so young...

[ahinton]

IMO that is quite an overstatement... although some of Scriabin's earlier music shows its Wagnerian roots quite clearly, his "mystic chord" is I think on another level of musical thinking, in that (I believe) he is no longer thinking of it as something that sounds like it needs "resolution". As for over-dependence, well, you can also say that tonal music is over-dependent on triads. Scriabin's harmony, from the 6th Sonata onwards, surely represents an alternative pathway out of tonality altogether, and, in view of late 20th century developments, quite a forward-looking one, in its possible derivation from an approximation to the 7th-13th partials of a natural harmonic series.

I'm not quite so sure of that; I rather see that "mystic chord" as growing our of those Wagnerian roots, at least in part, despite its quartal nature and, as to "no longer thinking of it as something that sounds like it needs "resolution"", is that not what Wagner himself was aiming towards in parts of Tristan in particular? Also, the works based upon and around that "mystic chord" seem to me to expand tonality rather than represent an alternative pathway out of it.

[Joseph K]

Also, the works based upon and around that "mystic chord" seem to me to expand tonality rather than represent an alternative pathway out of it.

I think you'd need to stretch the definition of 'tonality' beyond anything useful to encompass what Scriabin does in his later works. I mean, how would you go about analysing those works? Certainly not with Roman-numeral functional harmony. I see it as possessing a kind of synthetic modality - that is, based on a set, that compensates for the loss of tonality (meaningfully conceived). In Wagner there are still cadences.

[Joseph K]

Just finished listening to Hamelin sonatas 8-10. As I remembered, it's in these three that he kind of loses sight of things; in important respects there is too much facility on display, with for example the semiquaver double-stop motive in what you could call the second thematic group of the eighth sonata being dispatched very quickly, and generally I found his tempos a bit on the quick side and lacking the necessary sense of mystery and awe. His recordings made me think about his technique more than the music, and at the end of the ninth I was left thinking 'Is that it?' The rhythmic profile of the opening of the tenth sonata was sort of sing-song and made to sound humdrum because of that and again, a bit on the quick side. So, facility at the expense of expression and overall sense of drama and form sums it up. (Though these are just my subjective thoughts on the matter, he played all the right notes etc.)

P.S about to give Prométhée - Le Poeme du feu a spin, Deutches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin/Ashkenazy.

[Mandryka]

I have two recordings of Sofronitsky playing the 8th sonata --one runs for 12.38 and the other, a late Scriabin Museum recording, runs for 13.12

We know he said he rethought how to play Chopin when he was ill -- it looks as though he rethought how to play Scriabin too.

[RichardB]

Returning to Mikhail Rudy's recording of the late works again reminded me that Scriabin himself never played the study in major ninths op.65/1 because his hands were too small.