Adams, John

[Richard Barrett]

the Music he writes flits about stylistically from various Musics written between 1920 and 1950.

There is also the minimalism of the late 1960s and early 1970s, but yes.

unless one shares the bleak conception that ours is a uniquely nostalgist/necrophiliac age, in which grave robbery is a defining feature.

I think it's very easy to arrive at that conclusion from a lot of the programming that goes on, as well as from those (including composers!) who are of the opinion that music history "went wrong" somewhere (precise dates vary) and the only hope for regaining audiences and/or some lost source of expressivity is to try and pretend that the last x years never happened. I don't expect this is John Adams' own opinion, but I do expect it's quite widely held by many of his admirers, and one of the reasons is that programming has become so conservative that Birtwistle (qv) seems often to be regarded as some kind of revolutionary.

[MrGongGong]

It can be done tastefully.

[Richard Barrett]

Is that really the case? I thought I would just check the orchestral programmes for several orchestras over the next season (and including this season's Proms) to see whether that was true. The results don't bear the allegation out. This year's Proms, for instance, include just two works by Adams in one half of one concert (compared with seven works by Birtwhistle in five concerts for instance). AFAICS I can't find any works by Adams programmed in the 2014-2015 seasons of the BBCNOW, the CBSO, the LPO, the Philharmonia or the BBCSO, though I admit I have only been able to check the concerts for the latter two up to the end of this year. I think the laziness is more to do with the programming of the usual suspects from the C19 and early C20.

I wasn't thinking in particular about British orchestras, but I take your last point, that's a more widespread problem of course.

[Richard Barrett]

What utter nonsense.

My point was not about artists developing "a Public Profile in the hopes that others may discover their works" but about using pseudo-commercial marketing techniques to do so. In my "nonsensical" opinion, one of the most valuable things that art can do is to express - and share - a sense of freedom, in so far as that's possible, from the corporate values that infect almost every moment of our existence.

[Richard Barrett]

Where did you get that from? The Arditti String Quartet is constantly telling audiences not to take photos at their performances.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ferney, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your and kea's posts (I don't think I was referring to anything richardfinegold wrote). I clearly seem to have misunderstood your comment "but then I fail to see how admiration of Adams can lead someone to real contemporary "classical" Music" as implying that that failure to lead to other contemporary music was something culpable to be laid at Adams' door but from what you have said that was not your intention.

No, it wasn't - it's an awkward case of my misunderstanding something that rfg had said, and responding to that misunderstanding rather thanwhat he was actually saying , so the tone didn't follow!

That's the problem with these "chat room" formats - we can't hear each other's tone of voice, nor interrupt with a "yerwot?!" which enables real chatters to clarify what their point is as they're making it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There is also the minimalism of the late 1960s and early 1970s, but yes.

Yeerrrs ... but it's a very superficial relationship to Minimalism - basically the use of syncopated overlapping ostinati resulting in long-sustained chords which take on a sembelnce of a "Tonality". Phase-shifting, note addition/subtraction, gradual metamorphosis, unorthodox instrumental ensembles, use of technology (are microphones used anywhere in Adams other than for recording the finished piece?) - these facets don't actually feature, do they? (Genuine question, not a "smug, rhetorical comment as I puff on pipe" comment.)

I think it's very easy to arrive at that conclusion from a lot of the programming that goes on, as well as from those (including composers!) who are of the opinion that music history "went wrong" somewhere (precise dates vary) and the only hope for regaining audiences and/or some lost source of expressivity is to try and pretend that the last x years never happened. I don't expect this is John Adams' own opinion, but I do expect it's quite widely held by many of his admirers, and one of the reasons is that programming has become so conservative that Birtwistle (qv) seems often to be regarded as some kind of revolutionary.

Yes - and such programming is frequently a direct result of the "corporate values that infect every moment of our existence". The arranged marriage of convenience between "bums on seats" mentality and "any colour so long as it's black" attitudes.

(Incidentally - did you notice a couple or three years ago, when Roger Wright had a "Ask the Controller" comment board on the Proms Website? Richard Bernas asked him where all the cutting edge Music was. Bewildered, RW replied "I don't understand; we've got a premiere by Birtwistle!")

[MrGongGong]

. Bewildered, RW replied "I don't understand; we've got a premiere by Birtwistle!"

"But we aren't going to broadcast it" ?

Where did you get that from? The Arditti String Quartet is constantly telling audiences not to take photos at their performances.

It was from the London Festival of Contemporary Church music

[ahinton]

What utter nonsense. Why shouldn't a Creative Artist develop a Public Profile in the hopes that others may discover their works? The practice is ubiquitous and has been for centuries. It can be done tastefully.

Time, for starters. It might be argued that there's nothing inherently immoral in doing so, but all time spent in such activity and in developing such skills is time away from composition which, of course, by no means involves only the time spent in writing down the notes. Technology has enabled composers to self-publish in a way that would have been well-nigh impossible not so long ago, but even just doing that and distributing their works (as distinct from doing the whole "marketing" bit) takes time away from the actual act of composition.

What Richard wrote is anything but nonsense and he ought to know better than most here of what he writes because he is himself a composer; I for one can well empathise with his desire not to "insult people" by indulging in this kind of thing, even if he wanted to (which obviously he doesn't).

That said, my largely unenthusiastic view of Adams' work is in no way influenced by his ability to market it successfully; it would be the same if he didn't or couldn't market it thus.

[ahinton]

Where did you get that from? The Arditti String Quartet is constantly telling audiences not to take photos at their performances.

Surely that's the Kronos, innit?

[MrGongGong]

Some folks ARE really good at self promotion and marketing themselves
this isn't necessarily related to the "quality" (whatever that means?) of their work
I think many of us are frustrated that composers whom we regard as outstanding seem to be overlooked because they don't do this very well or they acquire a reputation for being "difficult" either as people or musically.
What the Internet gives us, however, is the ability to find out about these things from enthusiasts.

[vinteuil]

Some folks ARE really good at self promotion and marketing themselves
this isn't necessarily related to the "quality" (whatever that means?) of their work
.

... indeed, no relation to quality at all. And not, I think, a recent phenomenon.


I get the feeling that Bach and Schubert weren't up to much when it came to the schmoozing and marketing side of the biznis.


Whereas Lully and Liszt seem to have known exactly how to go about promoting themselves....

[Richard Barrett]

Phase-shifting, note addition/subtraction, gradual metamorphosis, unorthodox instrumental ensembles, use of technology (are microphones used anywhere in Adams other than for recording the finished piece?) - these facets don't actually feature, do they?

You're right (apart maybe from some of the earliest pieces which might be a bit process-oriented, I say "might" because it's ages since I heard any of them), I meant the repetitive broken chords and other relatively superficial aspects of music by (in particular) Philip Glass.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think it's very easy to arrive at that conclusion from a lot of the programming that goes on, as well as from those (including composers!) who are of the opinion that music history "went wrong" somewhere (precise dates vary) and the only hope for regaining audiences and/or some lost source of expressivity is to try and pretend that the last x years never happened. I don't expect this is John Adams' own opinion, but I do expect it's quite widely held by many of his admirers, and one of the reasons is that programming has become so conservative that Birtwistle (qv) seems often to be regarded as some kind of revolutionary.

Such re-writing of history to fit some people's ideas of aesthetic eligibility for inclusion let alone influence also, as you doubtless know, affected the development of jazz around the same time here, and especially in the States. OT, I know, but I think one can deduce common underlying ideological reasons for this having happened: "Capitalist Realism".

[Richard Barrett]

"Capitalist Realism"

Nailed. But that needs a whole thread of its own... anyway the effect this thread has had on me is that I think I ought to reacquaint myself with some of Adams' work today, just to be sure (or possibly even not).