Adams, John

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • richardfinegold
    Full Member
    • Sep 2012
    • 7735

    #46
    Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
    Anyway.

    I first heard John Adams some time in the 1990s - probably Shaker Loops, Harmonium, Common tones in Simple Time, Tromba Lontana - I taped the Halle premiere of El Dorado... so what did I find so attractive? A sense of speed, trajectory, rhythmical lift & impulse which became an exhilaration, a vision of something light, shining, sometimes darker and more driven, like a natural phenomena in the sea or sky... something carrying me, lifting me like a stormy sea or a warm breeze on a hilltop. Then I discovered Chamber Symphony, Fearful Symmetries... I thought, there's more to this guy - cartoonish mockery, lurid violence - and the pulverising train-rhythms of Symmetries took me back to Big Audio Dynamite, Mick Jones and The Clash. After encounters with Nixon in China and The Death of Klinghoffer, I thought, socially aware and direct communication too! - this guy can do it all... and later I began to relate back to pieces like Sibelius' Night Ride and Sunrise, or Beethoven's Pastoral (2nd movement as well as 1st!)...

    It didn't bother me that his materials were so familiar; the musical structures and images created were giving me new and intense experiences. I didn't ask them (or any music) to do more.

    But I began to wonder, with the Violin Concerto, whether the seriousness of intent implied by such a title had misled him a little - in order to create the wondrous beauties of the slow movement (and the transition to it) he'd overstretched a limited symphonic technique; I found more - a lot more - in the first movement later, but always felt the finale simply "finished the job", let the rest down a shade (hardly unique in that).
    So when I came to Harmonielehre or especially, Naive and Sentimental Music, I had a sense of "worst fears confirmed". A feeling that he'd had to attempt something like this, but couldn't quite achieve his grandly symphonic aims. In trying to move beyond what he'd first had, freshly and originally, to say, in trying to build more ambitious structures, he'd revealed his limitations... something like a rock band with 3rd- or 4th-album syndrome, or a great singles act attempting a concept album.

    In Guide To Strange Places, he seems almost to recognise this and to try to self-renew in that shorter, sharper earlier vein... but it doesn't quite come off. It seems far more interesting than the big post-Mahlerian, post-Wagnerian rapprochements, but the ending sounds too selfconsciously an attempt to be...​modernist.

    But there remain incidental pleasures and beauties, like John's Book of Alleged Dances, or the Trinity Aria from Doctor Atomic... and I sense that El Nino may have more to offer than I've yet had time to discover.
    What draws you to a composer's work is finally a mystery - especially a strong, early attraction: I can no more easily explain my love of Bruckner or Poulenc than that of, well, at least some of John Adams; my attraction to Birtwistle is as hard to describe, personally, as my recent fascination with Per Norgard: utterly compelled by music which I find very difficult to verbally evoke.

    So much the better for that...

    In an earlier post I said that Adams is more of a Grieg than a Beethoven. His more enjoyable non Operatic pieces tend to be shorter and not an attempt at a grand structural Argument.

    Comment

    • richardfinegold
      Full Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 7735

      #47
      Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
      On further reflection, there is, of course, one way in which Vitriano might lead someone to Simpson - if, visiting a gallery with an example of the former's work, there also happened also to be one of the latter's on display. Then, at least, there'd be a chance of an encounter. (Similarly, a Betjeman poem in an anthology might lead to an encounter with Pound in the same anthology.) If an ensemble programmed an Adams piece alongside one by Billone, then maybe ....


      Not impossible - the London Sinfonietta pairing Reich's Music for 18 Musicians with Ferneyhough's Transit some years ago was astonishingly successful*, and when Adams was CotW, he included Babbitt's Relata II as "historical background", so fair dos.


      * = But then Drumming is a much better work than anything Adams' imagination allows him to write.

      EDIT: as, indeed, is Music for 18 Musicians which was the Reich piece on that programme.

      Short Ride On A Fast Machine was programmed here by MTT paired with works by Copland and Ives. I knew at least one 20 something who came for the Adams and enjoyed his first exposure to the other pieces.

      Comment

      • richardfinegold
        Full Member
        • Sep 2012
        • 7735

        #48
        Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
        Yes, what a relief there are so few repeats in the artform formerly known as Classical Music! Oh, Just Imagine how bored we'd all be...
        Good job Mozart invented Serialism, isn't it? What a clever chap.
        So repetition is no longer to be tolerated? Great, now I can clear all that Bruckner off of my shelves and make room for Cage.

        Comment

        • BBMmk2
          Late Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 20908

          #49
          Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
          So repetition is no longer to be tolerated? Great, now I can clear all that Bruckner off of my shelves and make room for Cage.

          Your home be rather quiet then!!! )
          Don’t cry for me
          I go where music was born

          J S Bach 1685-1750

          Comment

          • Richard Barrett

            #50
            Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
            I fail to see why his having some success commercially represents a threat to Life As We Know It.
            I don't think anyone is claiming Adams's work is a threat to anything, it's mostly too insipid for that. Plus I don't really see why you bring up the fact that his work has brought him "some success commercially" - what relevance does that have to a discussion of his music?

            Jayne, comparing John Adams to the Clash just emphasises the former's comfortable soft-centredness as far as I'm concerned... but as you say, the "strong, early attraction" to something often keeps you listening when otherwise you wouldn't bother.

            Comment

            • Richard Barrett

              #51
              Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
              now I can clear all that Bruckner off of my shelves and make room for Cage.
              Good idea!

              Comment

              • gurnemanz
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 7405

                #52
                Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                In an earlier post I said that Adams is more of a Grieg than a Beethoven. His more enjoyable non Operatic pieces tend to be shorter and not an attempt at a grand structural Argument.
                Someone above referred to John Adams as "easy listening". I think it might help me to be provided with a list of composers which indicated their "difficultly" quotient. Underachievers such as Grieg and Adams might gain a mere 57%, whereas Beethoven could aspire to something in the low 90s - after all, much of his stuff is actually rather easy to listen to. (Mozart certainly let himself down with quite a few serenades and divertimenti.) I would be then able to test my mettle with such high-rankingly difficult composers as Webern and Boulez and assess myself as to how seriously I am to be taken in my appreciation of classical music.

                Comment

                • vinteuil
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 12927

                  #53
                  Originally posted by gurnemanz View Post
                  Someone above referred to John Adams as "easy listening"..
                  ... I like gurnemanz's #54.

                  And yet, and yet...

                  In the "good old days" - when I used to frequent record shops, CD shops and the like - there wd regularly be a whole aisle promoting "Easy Listening".

                  Why shdn't there be - I mused to m'self, callow yoof what I was - an equal - nay, a more extensive aisle - a fairest aisle - or aisles - of "Difficult Listening"? 'Cos that was what I was looking for - I wanted 'difficulty'. Anyone here remember Steiner's little essay "On Difficulty"??

                  Comment

                  • Richard Barrett

                    #55
                    Indeed, as vinteuil points out, "easy listening" is a (now extinct?) genre rather than some kind of measure of achievement in listening... for those who haven't ventured onto the ongoing Birtwistle thread, it contains much discussion of the idea of "difficulty" when listening to music.

                    Comment

                    • richardfinegold
                      Full Member
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 7735

                      #56
                      Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
                      I don't think anyone is claiming Adams's work is a threat to anything, it's mostly too insipid for that. Plus I don't really see why you bring up the fact that his work has brought him "some success commercially" - what relevance does that have to a discussion of his music?

                      Jayne, comparing John Adams to the Clash just emphasises the former's comfortable soft-centredness as far as I'm concerned... but as you say, the "strong, early attraction" to something often keeps you listening when otherwise you wouldn't bother.
                      If was Adams wasn't successful, if his Music wasn't being played and he was starving in a garret, this thread wouldn't exist.
                      At the root of the venom against him is a feeling that his success is undeserved, that it is one big swindle. Reread the o.p. if you disagree.

                      Comment

                      • ahinton
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 16123

                        #57
                        There's been some discussion of the real or perceived phenomenon of "difficult music" elsewhere on these boards recently and, for what (if anything) it may be worth, I do find some of the music of Adams and certain of his even less interesting comptratiots of like persuasion "difficult" in the sense that it's difficult (for me) to manage to engage with the content, even if only because there seems to be so little with which to engage; OK, I'm reasonably accustomed to this by now but, to the extent that I still find it "difficult" to figure out the point of some of it, it seems to me to be "difficult" music.

                        Comment

                        • ahinton
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 16123

                          #58
                          Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                          If was Adams wasn't successful, if his Music wasn't being played and he was starving in a garret, this thread wouldn't exist.
                          At the root of the venom against him is a feeling that his success is undeserved, that it is one big swindle. Reread the o.p. if you disagree.
                          Well, I don't go so far as to buy into that as such but, at the risk of sounding like some kind of unrepentant élitsit (a risk I really do now wish to take), I cannot quite see the mere fact that Adams as as widely performed as he happens to be is necessarily a reliable indicator of the value of the content of some of his work; his "success" is undoubtedly deserved to the extent that he has reached out to lots of people but, important as that is insofar as it goes (and, after all, Shostakovich did the same by very different means), is it everything in terms of a yardstick by which to judge either his work or his "success"?

                          Comment

                          • Richard Barrett

                            #59
                            Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                            If was Adams wasn't successful, if his Music wasn't being played and he was starving in a garret, this thread wouldn't exist.
                            At the root of the venom against him is a feeling that his success is undeserved, that it is one big swindle. Reread the o.p. if you disagree.
                            But you were the first contributor to mention his "success", plus apart from the OP I don't see any kind of "venom" directed at John Adams himself. Personally I think the idea that a composer is "having a laugh" at the expense of his/her audience betrays a distinct lack of understanding of what writing music actually involves. Having said that there is of course no way of telling whether a composer's work is motivated by sincere intentions or not, and in the final analysis it doesn't really matter; what happens between music and listener is what's important.

                            Comment

                            • teamsaint
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 25225

                              #60
                              Originally posted by gurnemanz View Post
                              Someone above referred to John Adams as "easy listening". I think it might help me to be provided with a list of composers which indicated their "difficultly" quotient. Underachievers such as Grieg and Adams might gain a mere 57%, whereas Beethoven could aspire to something in the low 90s - after all, much of his stuff is actually rather easy to listen to. (Mozart certainly let himself down with quite a few serenades and divertimenti.) I would be then able to test my mettle with such high-rankingly difficult composers as Webern and Boulez and assess myself as to how seriously I am to be taken in my appreciation of classical music.
                              but don't you need two difficulty rankings? (in fact probably many).

                              One for Difficulty in listening to (or hearing), and one for understanding?

                              personally I find Webern easy to listen to, but hard to understand. I think.
                              I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                              I am not a number, I am a free man.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X