Vaughan Williams, Ralph (1872-1958)

[Guest]

Having just returned from Manchester (no, I shan't mention the football), with some 45 CDs, I'm now turning my attention to Vaughan Williams, whose music I don't know a note of (ok maybe Greensleeves and Tallis, but that's about it).

The 7CD-box contains all his symphonies, and I wonder whether I should start numerically, or whether there's a better way of learning his symphonic repertoire. All symphonies are with various British orchestras, all conducted by Vernon Handley.

I'd welcome any advice,

Thank you,

Mario

[Panjandrum]

Number 1 is very much sui generis. I would recommend starting with 2 or 5 as the most accessible.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A Sea Symphony would be with me on my desert island, though I'd like to have no. 5 as well.

However, I do agree with Panjandrum, and would tackle them in the following order: 2, 5, 1, 7, 8, 6, 4, 3, 9

[Chris Newman]

Hi Mario,
I trust you had a good time in Manchester. 45 CDs? Wow!!!

RVW. Well, you cannot go wrong with Vernon Handley. His set maintains a high standard throughout. For a newcomer it is hard to suggest an absolutely right way to approach the symphonies. The numerical path makes a lot of sense. He covers a vast distance in time and in stylistic development between 1910 (First Symphony : The Sea Symphony) and 1957 (the Ninth) What amazing jazzy stuff he wrote in his old age!!! The 1st symphony is, ofcourse, mostly choral and that might affect your taste whether to dive in there. The London Symphony (2nd) is a most affable and approachable piece if you prefer orchestral to begin with. It typifies RVW's ability to conjure up time and place, even smells I believe. Of course there are other masterworks in this box set which you must experience to get the fullest flavour of RVW: Serenade to Music, Job (many of us would argue that this is a great unnumbered symphony) and Flos Campi. In some of the middle symphonies where RVW writes absolute music as opposed to rather pictorial stuff, and where, like Shostakovich, he often hits rock bottom in terms of emotion, but in the process produces absolutely wonderful music.

Just ignore the crap people say about him being the leader of the "Cow Pat School of Music" (I think Elizabeth Lutyens thought he wrote in a pastoral style. Maybe he did in film-scores but surely the powerful 4th, 8th and 9th symphonies hit that theory on the head?)

Bon Voyage.

Best wishes
Chris.

[Petrushka]

I came to the RVW symphonies in the following order: 9, 7, 6, 4, 1, 5, 3, 2 & 8. My favourite is 6 with A Sea Symphony being the one I can't get on with at all.

[Don Basilio]

I'm a bit weird in loving Vaughan Williams's operas. But then, I find symphonies generally a bit difficult to take. The slow movement of No 2 (the London symphony) is supposed to have been inspired by a Bloomsbury square towards sunset on a November afternoon. For a couple of years I tried the experiment of walking round Woburn Square at 4 pm in November with the slow movement on my ipod. The traffic won.

RVW divides into two to my mind. There's rhadsodic and mystical (No 4, Pilgrim's Progress, Lark, Tallis) and bleak and nihilistic (Symphony Antartica and No 6, Riders to the Sea.) I fear it is deeply superficial of me, but I far, far prefer A to B.

[Petrushka]

There's rhapsodic and mystical (No 4,

Not sure how you reach this conclusion, DB. As for Bloomsbury Square, I think we can grant RVW some poetic licence here though I'm sure it was a different experience in 1902 than it is in 2011. Anyway, I never set much store by pictorial comments like that one. There is much more than mere tone painting to be heard in this music.

[JoeG]

I would definitely start with No 5 - probably because it was the first I came to love. For some reason I have never got on wth the 2nd - though I did like the earlier version that was released by Chandos. After No5 the sixth, third and fourth are my favourites. You are in for a treat whichever way you approach them!

[Don Basilio]

Whoops. I meant No 5. I'm intuitive not sensate on my Myers Brigg Personality Indicator test.

[pilamenon]

I love the Sea Symphony, it makes a very impressive start to the cycle, and personally I'd do it in chronological order and chart VW's development for yourself. Wonder what you'll make of the mysterious 3rd (Pastoral)?

[Auferstehen2]

Hm, it seems No 2 it is. I didn’t even know No 1 was a choral work, as I haven’t even removed the cellophane from the box yet. But certain terms in the postings are mere Greek to me (even though I do come from the Mediterranean!).

1) Does the 9th contain jazz?
2) Most of your advice about leaving No 1 alone for the moment seems wise I think – would the Choral be a great start for a Beethoven newcomer?
3) I’m impressed with Chris who somehow new my box also contains an English Folk Song Suite, Flos Campi (whatever that is), Serenade, Partita (I thought only Bach did those!), Dives and Lazarus and Job A Masque.
4) What on earth is this “Cow Pat School of Music” phrase, please?
5) Pilamenon, I’ll let you know after I acquaint myself with the Pastoral, that’s a promise!

Many thanks to all,

Mario

[rauschwerk]

1) Does the 9th contain jazz?
2) Most of your advice about leaving No 1 alone for the moment seems wise I think – would the Choral be a great start for a Beethoven newcomer?
3) I’m impressed with Chris who somehow new my box also contains an English Folk Song Suite, Flos Campi (whatever that is), Serenade, Partita (I thought only Bach did those!), Dives and Lazarus and Job A Masque.
4) What on earth is this “Cow Pat School of Music” phrase, please?
5) Pilamenon, I’ll let you know after I acquaint myself with the Pastoral, that’s a promise!

Many thanks to all,

Mario

1) No;
2) The Sea Symphony contains some wonderful passages (the opening, for example) but for my taste the finale is too protracted and contains too high a proportion of slow music;
3) The term 'partita' dates from the late 16th century and is an inexact term: Walton also wrote one. Job is without doubt one of VW's great masterpieces. So is Flos Campi although it's very rarefied;
4) Cowpat: derogatory term coined by Elisabeth Lutyens to describe Eng. pastoral school of composers—e.g. Vaughan Williams , Holst , Ireland , and Bax . First used (as ‘the cowpat school’) in a lecture she gave at Dartington summer sch. of mus. in 1950s, referring to ‘folky‐wolky melodies on the cor anglais’ (quoted from Grove Online).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

1) Does the 9th contain jazz?

It does not contain any jazz references, but saxophones are used in the orchestra.

The finale of the Sea Symphony is indeed long. On the original Decca Boult recording, it was on 3 LP sides, the 2nd being the 2nd & 3rd movements, followed by the beginning of the finale, which concluded as the entire 3rd side. But it's truly magnificent.

[Panjandrum]

I would fully endorse most of the comments above. Each of the symphonies is a world unto itself, with the possible exception of 4 and 6 which cover similar ground (ie brutal and discomforting). 1 is a stupendous way to start a symphonic odyssey, and gives the clue to VW's extraordinary range. 9 is an amazing end to the cycle: Brucknerian or Sibelian are both epithets which have been applied with some justification. It ends with an enigmatic coda which brings VW's symphonic career to a culmination on a note of agnostic uncertainty. I envy anyone about to embark on these works for the first time - what riches are in store for you!

[Auferstehen2]

Enjoying my way through the 2nd symphony currently. I never could understand why more composers (not that I am one of course) used strings divisi so rarely. The effect, as in the second movement here, is one of such a balmy autumnal evening, or am I talking rubbish?

Incidentally, is Mr Handley a good interpreter of these works? The RLPO under him sound pretty good to me. I lived in London for some 35 years, but no "London" connection has reached me yet, although I've yet to come to the Chimes.

Mario