Ives, Charles (1874 - 1954)

[visualnickmos]

A lovely programme, and reasonable price:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Radical-Suit-Tie-Charles-Ives/dp/B0018RWDJK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1402686044&sr=1-1&keywords=charles+ives%2C+a+radical+in+a+suit+and+tie

... I didn't know that this was the full orchestral version.

WOW! It's worth getting just for the sleeve design alone! I want it!

[Petrushka]

Does anyone else know The General Slocum a very short piece that commemorates a 1904 boating disaster in which an explosion killed over 1000 people? It lasts just under 6 minutes but is strangely moving and the explosion itself is shockingly literal.

According to Ives: 'This awful catastrophe got on everybody's nerves. I can give no other reason for attempting to put it to music'.

[Roehre]

Does anyone else know The General Slocum a very short piece that commemorates a 1904 boating disaster in which an explosion killed over 1000 people? It lasts just under 6 minutes but is strangely moving and the explosion itself is shockingly literal.

According to Ives: 'This awful catastrophe got on everybody's nerves. I can give no other reason for attempting to put it to music'.

A moving piece indeed.

[richardfinegold]

I'm sorry to hear that, HS. I know the orchestral horn repertoire is full of individual & collective gems, but I find the ending of Ives' Holidays Symphony, "Thanksgiving & Forefathers' Day" with its valedictory quartet of offstage horns intoning against a retreating procession of calming strings and church bells to be one of he most affecting passages in music, & the preceding climax as the chorus thunder out the hymn "Duke Street" against dissonant brass as powerfully moving as Mahler's "Auferstehen". GM famously declared that "The Symphony must be like the world" - Ives may or may not have been aware of the quote, but from the early 1900s had put this dictum into practice with his sonic tapestries of marching bands, church bells & revivalist hymns. There's also a link between Ives & VW through the New England transcendentalists.

Perhaps inevitably, one of the stumbling-blocks to greater appreciation of Ives in the concert hall must be the cost of the extras involved in performance. As with other Ives pieces, "Holidays" needs not just a large chorus, but various spatially-positioned mini-ensembles.

This is why I think of Ives as America's Mahler.

[Barbirollians]

I am rather in the HS camp . i have quite enjoyed some of the works of his I have heard but not so much that I rush to hear them .

[Krystal]

Interesting that Richard Barrett, Roehre and myself include so many of the same works in our "lists". Here's the composer himself playing the Alcotts movement of his Concord Sonata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXHjeSamzno

This music is so American!! Unbelievably so. I will buy this Sonata of Ives through Amazon.

Thanks so much for the brilliant responses to my question, and to those who sent me reassuring private messages about continuing on the 'board.

I first became interested in Ives when researching Bernard Herrmann, who was a great early champion of Ives and a personal friend. (There's another pioneer in American music - Bernard Herrmann. I"ll tell you all about his experiences with new music in the USA one of these days.)

[Richard Barrett]

This is principally a message for Bryn, but if there are others here of an Ivesian persuasion it would be very good to hear from them. I think, Bryn, you mentioned that you had listened to the new Dudamel recordings of Ives' symphonies and I would very much like to know what you think. Of course I can just go and listen to them myself, but, particularly with no.4, I don't have much idea of what I should be listening for, having so little knowledge of the music or what it's supposed to sound like.

[Bryn]

This is principally a message for Bryn, but if there are others here of an Ivesian persuasion it would be very good to hear from them. I think, Bryn, you mentioned that you had listened to the new Dudamel recordings of Ives' symphonies and I would very much like to know what you think. Of course I can just go and listen to them myself, but, particularly with no.4, I don't have much idea of what I should be listening for, having so little knowledge of the music or what it's supposed to sound like.

Hi Richard, you must have missed my FB comment on them. I think them all worth hearing. My one gripe is my usual one about the final chord of the 2nd. Dudamel follows Bernstein, rather than Ives. As with others who think they know better then Ives, I have chopped out the middle of that chord to finesses something more like the curt retort Ives wrote. In the 4th, Adams with the Ensemble Modern Orchestra remains my favourite but the Dudamel is very good. He also makes the case for the 1st better than most. If you have a QOBUZ sub, I would recommend streaming from there.

[Richard Barrett]

Hi Richard, you must have missed my FB comment on them. I think them all worth hearing. My one gripe is my usual one about the final chord of the 2nd. Dudamel follows Bernstein, rather than Ives. As with others who think they know better then Ives, I have chopped out the middle of that chord to finesses something more like the curt retort Ives wrote. In the 4th, Adams with the Ensemble Modern Orchestra remains my favourite but the Dudamel is very good. He also makes the case for the 1st better than most. If you have a QOBUZ sub, I would recommend streaming from there.

I did miss your FB comment. I do have it lined up in Qobuz for streaming, but listened to the first movement of no.4 and wondered to myself whether this was a good performance or not! If I'm going to get to know a piece like that from a recording I would prefer not to start with a questionable one...

[Nick Armstrong]

I do have it lined up in Qobuz for streaming, but listened to the first movement of no.4 and wondered to myself whether this was a good performance or not! If I'm going to get to know a piece like that from a recording I would prefer not to start with a questionable one...

I found the movement from No 2 played on CD Review an odd mixture of haste and ... politeness, somehow (apart from that final chord). Didn’t work for me.

[Pulcinella]

I have the Double Decca set: LAPO/Mehta in #1 and #2, ASMF/Marriner in #3, and Cleveland/Dohnanyi in #4 (with the two Orchestral sets as fillers); the collection gets downgraded in the Penguin Guide because of cuts, but #4 gets honourable mention.
I also have NYPO/Bernstein (sorry Bryn) in #2 and #3 (Sony) and #2 (DG); must listen to how Mehta deals with the end of #2.

The 2009 Penguin Guide rates the Hyperion set (Dallas SO/Litton) very highly, but doesn't mention any other versions of #4.

(Perhaps a kind host could edit the thread title: a typo of 0 instead of ) gives him a rather long life!)

[Nick Armstrong]

a kind host

[Bryn]

I have the Double Decca set: LAPO/Mehta in #1 and #2, ASMF/Marriner in #3, and Cleveland/Dohnanyi in #4 (with the two Orchestral sets as fillers); the collection gets downgraded in the Penguin Guide because of cuts, but #4 gets honourable mention.
I also have NYPO/Bernstein (sorry Bryn) in #2 and #3 (Sony) and #2 (DG); must listen to how Mehta deals with the end of #2.

The 2009 Penguin Guide rates the Hyperion set (Dallas SO/Litton) very highly, but doesn't mention any other versions of #4.

(Perhaps a kind host could edit the thread title: a typo of 0 instead of ) gives him a rather long life!)

Though not a fully professional orchestra, the Yale Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Ives specialist James Sinclair show how Ives conceived the final chord. They are not alone in getting it right but the role of Sinclair lends particular authority.

The Yale/Sinclair recording ca be downloaded from Bandcamp. https://yalesymphonyorchestra.bandca...ive-at-woolsey

[Richard Barrett]

Many centuries ago I saw the Concertgebouw with MTT play no.2, with the last chord suitably short. I found it pretty hard going before that though.

[Serial_Apologist]

Many centuries ago I saw the Concertgebouw with MTT play no.2, with the last chord suitably short. I found it pretty hard going before that though.

You could well be in for a pleasant surprise Richard. My memory of first hearing the fourth was at the Proms in ? 1966. Some Prommers had beebn relocated to "the gods", myself included, and many were stirred to their feet to peer over the balustrade during the extraordinary second movement, when it seemed if the orchestra had been seized by some supernatural ordainment! It remains one of the most unforgettable musical experiences of my life.