Saint-Saëns, Camille (1835 - 1921)

[Dave2002]

A few years ago I was given Stephen Hough's set of piano concertos by Saint-Saëns, which was a recommended set at the time. I haven't played it much, and indeed picked up another copy in a charity shop for playing in the car. More recently I picked up another twofer of the piano concertos in a charity shop - by Pascal Rogé with Dutoit. This one does currently live in the car, and I have now heard all the concertos several times, and have gradually come to like them more. I find the Egyptian concerto - no 5 - very strange - with its atmospheric slow movement, and also some very unusual piano effects in that movement. I don't understand how the pianists get those effects, after which the final movement seems almost prosaic.

I was pretty much under the impression that the best known concerto was piano concerto 2, though there are some great moments in the others. I find the style of these concertos rather odd - I'm not quite sure how the piano writing relates to the orchestral themes, often it seems to be decorative rather than establishing a strong development or argument with the orchestra, but I'm resigning myself to the idea that it doesn't really matter anyway if it sounds OK, and I am getting some enjoyment out of these works.

I haven't explored the violin concertos for many years - I thought I knew them. I will revisit them in the next few weeks, to see if I have similar thoughts about the relationship between the violin and orchestra. I have for a long time thought I liked the cello concerto (which?), but I've not heard it for a few years.

There is a lot of other music by Saint-Saëns which is pretty much unknown, including the Piano Quartet and Piano Quintet. The septet with the trumpet is not too well known either. As with many other composers he wrote a lot more than is currently played - I can only think of a few pieces which are known - 3rd Symphony, Carnival of Animals, Septet, 2nd piano concerto, Violin concerto 3, Cello Concerto (he wrote 2 - I don't recall which is better known).

Are there not other pieces which are worth an outing? Is his Oratorio de Noêl one of them? I noted a poor review of it in one CD performance on Amazon. Does anyone else have any suggestions for works by this composer which might be worth looking out for?

Comments on his style of writing would also be of interest.

http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Camille_Saint-Sa%C3%ABns

Of course, I forgot Danse macabre!

[Pulcinella]

His Requiem deserves to be better known/more widely performed (IMO, of course).

[Roehre]

Saint Saens is suffering from the impression that his music lacks depth.
Pulcinella mentions the Requiem op.54 already, which shows the contrary.

If one likes to characterise the piano concertos, no.1 is "with the tumpet signal" (as is violin concerto no.1 btw), no.2 "The Sea", no.3 "The Swiss", no.4 "The Celtic" and no.5 "The Egyptian". The Africa fantasy op.89 has to be mentioned here too.

For the violin concertos, no.3 in b op.61 (it shares key and opus number with Elgar's ) is the most played, likely for the slow mvt with its fairy tale like ending (flute + solo violin on harmonics in unison) but also for the reminiscence of the Algerian suite op.60 in the finale. Nevertheless don't rule out his Havaniase op.83, the "4th" concerto, the concert piece opus 62, the rather popular Introduction and Rondo op.28, or the other 2 concertos. Of the cello concertos no.1 op.33 is the "well-known".

All four of the symphonic poems, of which Danse macabre op.40 is one, and enjoyable, shorter (all around 10 minutes) and definitely less bombastic than the lisztian examples. One could add his overtures (opera as well as concert) here too, especially andromaque (1903, without opus number), Javotte (ditto, 1896), spartacus (1863, ditto), Ouverture pour une Opéra-comique op.140 or Ouverture de Fête op.133.

Samson et Delila is an opera to explore, the others are musically sometimes very nice, but theatrically and in terms of the libretto little disasters IMO, perhaps with the exception of Henry VIII.

As for the chamber music, I personally am impressed by the (late) string quartes, opp.112 and 153 respectively, his cello sonata no.2 op.123, and especially for his swan songs, his very last compositions, the three wind sonatas, for oboe op.166, clarinet op.167 and bassoon op.168.

I also like to point out that it was Saint Saens who composed the very first film music: L'Assassinat de duc de Guise op.128 (1908), for theatre orchestra, not dissimilar to Stravinsky's 2 Suites for small orchestra.
In it he shows that at the age of 75 he still was able to create useful and powerful music, also to be found in all of his 5 symphonies, of which no.2 in a op.55 has an earworm-like-melody in the finale.

there is a lot to discover

[Suffolkcoastal]

Saint-Saens was also a fascinating character, I read an absorbing biography of him by Brian Rees a few years back which I couldn't put down. A child prodigy with a very enquiring mind for a variety of subjects throughout his life, this is well worth a read. I have little to add to Roehre's excellent summary above, though I'm also rather fond of the two Piano Trios, especially the 2nd in e minor op92.

[Stanfordian]

Saint-Saens was also a fascinating character, I read an absorbing biography of him by Brian Rees a few years back which I couldn't put down. A child prodigy with a very enquiring mind for a variety of subjects throughout his life, this is well worth a read. I have little to add to Roehre's excellent summary above, though I'm also rather fond of the two Piano Trios, especially the 2nd in e minor op92.

Hiya Suffolkcoastal,
Yes, Saint-Saens two Piano Trios are I believe his finest chamber works.

[Nick Armstrong]

A few years ago I was given Stephen Hough's set of piano concertos by Saint-Saëns, which was a recommended set at the time. I haven't played it much, and indeed picked up another copy in a charity shop for playing in the car ... I am getting some enjoyment out of these works.

Same here - I acquired the download version at the time (maybe the MP3 'rip' of a set I gave on CD as a present at the time, I can't remember) and haven't listened much at all, maybe just No 2.

I rediscovered them over the last week or two, on a road trip through France - 1200 miles in 5 days.... one sunny morning, French piano concertos (other than the much-played Poulenc and Ravel) were exactly what one wanted, so now that the iPod plugs into the car, the whole set got a couple of plays through. Just right as a soundtrack to the trip.... a lot of the music I find banal but not in an irritating way, and some movements are more inspired and catchy. Would I sit down at home and listen, or seek any of them out at a concert? - no. But I'll keep them on the iPod for the right 'soundtrack' moment.

I think I have some of his chamber music by the Nash Ensemble - must give that a try soon too.

Incidentally, in very much the same category as the S-S concerto box is a set of Glazunov's concertos which I also have and which are good 'driving' music, but sans plus... http://www.allmusic.com/album/glazun...s-mw0002126911

[Dave2002]

Caliban (and others)

May 20, RFH

http://www.concert-diary.com/concert/545128484/Stephen-Hough-performs-Saint-Sa%C3%ABns-Royal-Philharmonic-Orchestra

[visualnickmos]

I've often thought that Saint Saëns gets 'passed over'

A pity, as I find that the more I listen and familiarise myself with his work, the more it seems to reveal. At the moment - prompted by this thread - I am listening to his string quartets played by the Miami String Quartet on the Conifer Classics label. A great CD which has been lurking on my shelves for some years - not often played. I do however, recommend this CD. Well-played and excellently recorded. It also has Faure's string quartet in E minor Op.121

[richardfinegold]

I can't remember if it was Saint Saens or Richard Strauss--or perhaps it was both--who refered to themselves as a "First Rate Second Rate Composer". I think the description applies more to Saint Saens.
I'm surprised that there hasn't been much mention of the Organ Symphony. I've heard it in concert twice in the last 4 years.
I had the Ciccolini set of the Piano Concertos on lp many moons ago but never developed much of an affection for any except 2 and 5. I bought the Roge set second hand and probably played it once.
For me it is pretty much the Introduction and Rondo, Havanaise, Carnival Of the Animals, the Danse Macarbe, andthe Bacchanalia from Samson et Delilah.
The story about CSS that always intrigues me is that he suppossedly stormed out of a performance of Ceasar Frank's Piano Quintet, insulted because "it was all about sex".

[visualnickmos]

"First Rate Second Rate Composer"

It was Richard Strauss.

The story about CSS that always intrigues me is that he suppossedly stormed out of a performance of Ceasar Frank's Piano Quintet, insulted because "it was all about sex".

I haven't heard this story. What on earth could that be all about!

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm surprised that there hasn't been much mention of the Organ Symphony.

I suspect because the thread is about his lesser-known pieces - that must count as one of his two best-known, surely. I heard it live for the first time a few weeks back and loved it.

[Jonathan]

Some of the piano music is excellent - the etudes Op.52 are lovely. The complete piano music on Grand Piano with Geoffrey Burleson is very good for these - I am still waiting for volumes 4 - 6...

[pastoralguy]

The first violin concerto is a gorgeous piece. The problem is that it's only about 15 minutes long so it's hard to program.

Kyung-Wha Chung's recording is superb.

[Serial_Apologist]

He appears to have held surprisingly conservative views on music - surprising in view of the (to me) remarkable for so early harmonic experiments in the "Carnival des animaux", especially "The Cuckoo", which one feels must have influenced Satie and possibly Debussy. "Le Rouet" (?) also contains some pre-echoes of Impressionism.

[Roehre]

The first violin concerto is a gorgeous piece. The problem is that it's only about 15 minutes long so it's hard to program.

Kyung-Wha Chung's recording is superb.

It isn't that difficult to program, as there are some nice other violin+orchestra pieces by Saint Saens to "fill the gap": Introduction and Rondo op.28, the Havanaise op.83, Caprice andalous op.122 and the Romances opp.37 and 48.
almost spoiled for choice IMVHO, one only needs an inventive concert manager.....