COTW - Film muzac

[Bryn]

... As for JW's 'considerable' concert output - any ideas why it's seldom (ever?) played on Radio 3?

Perhaps it is considered a tad too challenging for the average Radio 3 listener?

[Stephen Whitaker]

Would it be too much to ask you to make a value judgement on any of these works, SW? Only having, iirc, heard



Which I think was televised from Highgrove? I heard music that was pleasing enough in itself in a post-Irelandish way if rather lacking in depth.

Well I have been arguing against ill-informed value judgements so I am not going to venture there until I am more familiar with the pieces.

The Highgrove harp piece was by Patrick Hawes, commissioned by the Prince of Wales for his harpist.

[french frank]

Perhaps it is considered a tad too challenging for the average Radio 3 listener?

In all fairness, Bryn, anything that gets into the Specialist Classic Chart stands a good chance of being played on Radio 3, doesn't it?

[Serial_Apologist]

Well I have been arguing against ill-informed value judgements so I am not going to venture there until I am more familiar with the pieces.

The Highgrove harp piece was by Patrick Hawes, commissioned by the Prince of Wales for his harpist.

Ah - thanks for the correction, Stephen.

[Herrmannesque]

I think it's a bit disappointing when you put forward a reasonable argument and when those points are studiously ignored, or replaced by misrepresentations or non sequiturs. As for 'gaining a wider audience' - is Radio 3 the obvious place? It has a small audience whose listeners are predominantly enthusiasts for the kind of musics [sic] in which Radio 3 specialises. Ten years ago there was a strand which specialised in film music and music theatre, with specialist presenters. And another for light music. Ever wondered why they were dropped?

Nor is the fact that individuals - or many people - love a particular style of music a reason for it being included by a particular service.

[My own view of what "20th c.-21st c. "classical music'" ('classical' being here a misnomer), and especially 21st c. is that it broadly follows through the changes in what became the mainstream of the genre from the beginning of the 20th c. onwards: in the case of living composers, we lack the discussion and explication of the experimental, the electro-acoustical, the 'cutting edge' of music - which no service but Radio 3 would ever attempt.]

I think it's a bit disappointing when people regard what is after all a publically funded institution as a private fiefdom where they can indulge their own private enthusiasms. (And then look down upon anyone who dares express an interest in something different - hence the snide title of this very thread.)

And yes, R3 does have an obligation broaden its appeal. Not just for classical music but also to secure its own survival into the future. Some of the attitudes displayed on here are just not very helpful. No wonder Roger Wright regarded many of the people who contributed to the old R3 message-boards (some of whom also appear on here) as an infernal nuisance and was glad to be rid of them once they were closed down.

Talking of misrepresentations and non sequiturs. Why talk as if anyone is asking R3 to replace the core classical repertoire with wall-to-wall soundtracks. Certainly not I. Second, don't try and mis-represent this as a case of film music fans wanting "their music" on R3. For starters, I don't class myself as a film music fan. (My tastes are primarily orchestral and chamber music from the 19th and 20th Centuries.) In fact, the only style of music I love is classical music, of which film music forms a part, just as much as Opera or Ballet. How often does this have to be said?

[MrGongGong]

My tastes are primarily orchestral and chamber music from the 19th and 20th Centuries.

aaaah you have "outed" yourself there
according to some in these parts
ANYTHING after Elgar just isn't music anyway

[Serial_Apologist]

aaaah you have "outed" yourself there
according to some in these parts
ANYTHING after Elgar just isn't music anyway

She is Eudaimonia, and I claim my $20,000

[Sir Velo]

And yes, R3 does have an obligation broaden its appeal. Not just for classical music but also to secure its own survival into the future.

There is a contradiction at the heart of what you say.

Firstly, the current strategy is not working. FF and others can provide you with evidence that demonstrates that R3 listener numbers have declined during the RW years. Some new listeners have been won, but just as many existing have switched off or over to internet stations etc.

Secondly, the "broadening" of R3's appeal, of which you speak, has led to a contraction in not only the range of music and number of composers represented, but also in the number of different works actually performed (see the review of 2012 works performed thread). What the current direction has achieved is a restriction, not broadening, in access to the multifarious and multifaceted world of classical and serious art music.

Thirdly, classical music can be difficult, requiring high levels of engagement and concentration. A serious disservice is being done to both new listeners and existing listeners by the Blue Peter style of presentation which threatens to dominate the station's approach.

[Flosshilde]

the only style of music I love is classical music, of which film music forms a part, just as much as Opera or Ballet. How often does this have to be said?

How do you define 'classical' music?

[Herrmannesque]

There is a contradiction at the heart of what you say.

Firstly, the current strategy is not working. FF and others can provide you with evidence that demonstrates that R3 listener numbers have declined during the RW years. Some new listeners have been won, but just as many existing have switched off or over to internet stations etc.

Secondly, the "broadening" of R3's appeal, of which you speak, has led to a contraction in not only the range of music and number of composers represented, but also in the number of different works actually performed (see the review of 2012 works performed thread). What the current direction has achieved is a restriction, not broadening, in access to the multifarious and multifaceted world of classical and serious art music.

Thirdly, classical music can be difficult, requiring high levels of engagement and concentration. A serious disservice is being done to both new listeners and existing listeners by the Blue Peter style of presentation which threatens to dominate the station's approach.

I'm not a spokesman for RW and have been highly critical of some of the changes. I'm afraid we'll have to get used to declining audiences, just as with newspaper's and television channels who also have to cope with similar situations. There are such a range of platforms for people to choose from now. If we are to survive in this new environment we can no longer afford to sit on our laurels and say, "That's the way its always been and why should we have to change."

[Herrmannesque]

How do you define 'classical' music?

Do you really want to open that can of worms, Flosshilde?

[french frank]

And yes, R3 does have an obligation broaden its appeal.

Well, let me quote from the report of Lord (Chris) Smith's independent committee, submitted to the BBC Trust in 2010:

"For Radio 3, our main concern is that the service should retain its “quality” positioning and its distinctiveness from Classic FM. If Radio 3 were to broaden its appeal (for example, through more accessible programming - supported by promotional campaigns), this could have a detrimental impact on Classic FM’s audience – though listeners might equally be drawn from other BBC services, such as Radio 2 and Radio 4. In order to ensure the retention of Radio 3’s distinctiveness, there may be scope to tighten the service’s remit ..."

[The bold is mine.]Following this report to the Trust, the Trust agreed that Radio 3 should ignore this concern and do the exact opposite: seek to broaden its appeal with more accessible programming. RadioCentre (the commercial radio trade group) particularly mentioned the introduction of film music as a populist device designed to imitate CFM's output - but a CotW on JW's film music is just the tip of a very large iceberg - and that's what makes people angry (those who are, that is).

Actually, there is a bit of JW's harp concerto on YouTube and it is much more in the style of 20/21st c. 'classical music'. The film music is comfy and populist. So why didn't they do a CotW of JW's concert music?

[Nick Armstrong]

So why didn't they do a CotW of JW's concert music?

I think it was a mixture, to be fair... I didn't listen to them all but I suspect there was a concert work in each programme along with the movie scores.

[french frank]

I think it was a mixture, to be fair... I didn't listen to them all but I suspect there was a concert work in each programme along with the movie scores.

Well, that part of his output sounds worth a listen, if not much of a contender in the field. I suppose I meant, why not a CotW with JW in that role, rather than the film music?

[Mr Pee]

How do you define 'classical' music?

Oh come on, Flossie. That's a whole thread in itself. And we'd still never reach a definition.