COTW - Film muzac

[Stephen Whitaker]

I couldn't have put it better and I wholeheartedly agree. (Time to start another thread on what to do about replacing the white, middle-aged or indeed aged people?)

Why the "So be it" in response, then? But, I think I'm probably ill advised in responding further as well. Except to say I too am pleased that R3 is not just a classical music station. Long may it continue to broaden its horizons. I want the music I love to gain a wider hearing and anything which attracts the uninitiated to it is good by me. Personally I'm sick and tired of attending concerts where I'm surrounded by white, middle-aged or indeed aged people (which includes myself, now I think of it!)

[french frank]

I couldn't have put it better and I wholeheartedly agree. (Time to start another thread on what to do about replacing the white, middle-aged or indeed aged people?)

I think it's a bit disappointing when you put forward a reasonable argument and when those points are studiously ignored, or replaced by misrepresentations or non sequiturs. As for 'gaining a wider audience' - is Radio 3 the obvious place? It has a small audience whose listeners are predominantly enthusiasts for the kind of musics [sic] in which Radio 3 specialises. Ten years ago there was a strand which specialised in film music and music theatre, with specialist presenters. And another for light music. Ever wondered why they were dropped?

Nor is the fact that individuals - or many people - love a particular style of music a reason for it being included by a particular service.

[My own view of what "20th c.-21st c. "classical music'" ('classical' being here a misnomer), and especially 21st c. is that it broadly follows through the changes in what became the mainstream of the genre from the beginning of the 20th c. onwards: in the case of living composers, we lack the discussion and explication of the experimental, the electro-acoustical, the 'cutting edge' of music - which no service but Radio 3 would ever attempt.]

[hmvman]

Personally I'm sick and tired of attending concerts where I'm surrounded by white, middle-aged or indeed aged people (which includes myself, now I think of it!)

Why is the colour and age of ones fellow concert-goers relevant to one's enjoyment or otherwise of the concert? Isn't it the music and its performance that's important?

[JFLL]

Personally I'm sick and tired of attending concerts where I'm surrounded by white, middle-aged or indeed aged people (which includes myself, now I think of it!)

I can sort of understand this view, if it means that it’s a pity that most young people tend not to have cottoned on to classical music (yet), but ‘white, middle-aged or indeed aged people’ happen to form the majority of those who like classical music. I can’t quite see why their mere presence at concerts should be so off-putting, and I didn’t feel that way when I was young either. If they weren’t there, and didn’t listen to R3, and didn’t buy CDs, classical music would be in an even more parlous state. And would you be unhappy at a pop concert being surrounded by mainly non-white, young people?

(As for the suggestion in another post about ‘replacing the white, middle-aged or indeed aged people’, it sounds downright sinister.)

[Stephen Whitaker]

When only the white, middle-aged or indeed aged people form the majority of those who like classical music there is a problem
because there will soon come a time when that majority succumbs to the course of nature.
Nothing sinister about considering the need to replace them when that happens.

[Stephen Whitaker]

" Ten years ago there was a strand which specialised in film music and music theatre, with specialist presenters. And another for light music.
Ever wondered why they were dropped?"

Dropped, I thought, by doctrinaire thinkers who seemed to have exclusive access to the tablets of Reith, on the kind of musics [sic] in which Radio 3 might specialise.

Nor is the fact that individuals - or many people - love a particular style of music a reason for it being excluded by a particular service.

[Mr Pee]

Seems a lot of fuss is being made about 1 week out of 52. Not too long ago I seem to recall COTW was "Big Bands"- Ellington, etc. If that was a suitable subject- and it wasn't even a single composer- then why the heck isn't John Williams?

[Serial_Apologist]

And would you be unhappy at a pop concert being surrounded by mainly non-white, young people?

I personally wouldn't - only with the music to which they were subjecting themselves.

Interestingly enough (or not), as someone more familiar with black jazz than soul musicians, I have found that it is younger members of the former who are more interested today in classical music, by which I mean modernist classical music, than their white confreres, who may refer to having been exposed to parents' tastes and record collections, but are circumspect on detail when discussing their own music. I am sure that there are understandable PC reasons for this, which won't be overcome until those aspects of modern music claimed by some in their own interests "elitist" are inscribed, not in idiom, and its capacity to expand, but in the mindsets of those who profit, or help those who profit, by keeping music simple. Simple music, simple unquestioning mindsets.

[JFLL]

When only the white, middle-aged or indeed aged people form the majority of those who like classical music there is a problem
because there will soon come a time when that majority succumbs to the course of nature.
Nothing sinister about considering the need to replace them when that happens.

What if people tend to gravitate to classical music later in life ('see the light')? If so, with a bit of luck, there will be natural replacement – but in my view only if they aren’t spoonfed, served gimmicks and generally patronized and treated like delicate flowers to be protected from ‘inaccessibility’ or ‘elitism’, which I think puts off intelligent people of any age. It would be interesting to have a survey of concert-goers to find out whether they went to similar concerts at age 15, 25, 35, 45, …, and it would be even more interesting, if their habits have changed, to know why. (Maybe ff or someone else has some info on this.) The same would apply to people who buy CDs or download music.

Sorry, I realize this isn't really the thread for this.

[Stephen Whitaker]

"Sorry, I realize this isn't really the thread for this."

Which is why I proposed starting a new thread.

For the record ...my teenage visits to Leeds Town hall included performances by Shura Cherkassky and The Incredible String Band,
a pattern maintained while studying in Liverpool. Roxy Music one night and the RLPO the next.

[Serial_Apologist]

What if people tend to gravitate to classical music later in life ('see the light')? If so, with a bit of luck, there will be natural replacement – but in my view only if they aren’t spoonfed, served gimmicks and generally patronized and treated like delicate flowers to be protected from ‘inaccessibility’ or ‘elitism’, which I think puts off intelligent people of any age. It would be interesting to have a survey of concert-goers to find out whether they went to similar concerts at age 15, 25, 35, 45, …, and it would be even more interesting, if their habits have changed, to know why. (Maybe ff or someone else has some info on this.) The same would apply to people who buy CDs or download music.

Sorry, I realize this isn't really the thread for this.

Excellent points!

[Stephen Whitaker]

Poor old John Williams hasn't had much of a look in indeed,
so for the record his non-film music represents a considerable output
eg........
1969: Concerto for Flute and Orchestra
1976: Concerto for Violin and Orchestra
1985: Concerto for Tuba and Orchestra
1991: Concerto for Clarinet and Orchestra
1993: Concerto for Bassoon and Orchestra, The Five Sacred Trees
1994: Concerto for Cello and Orchestra
1996: Concerto for Trumpet and Orchestra
2000: TreeSong for Violin and Orchestra
2002: Heartwood: Lyric Sketches for Cello and Orchestra
2003: Concerto for Horn and Orchestra
2007: Duo Concertante for Violin and Viola
2009: Concerto for Viola and Orchestra
2009: On Willows and Birches, for Harp and Orchestra
2011: Concerto for Oboe and Orchestra

[Serial_Apologist]

Poor old John Williams hasn't had much of a look in indeed,
so for the record his non-film music represents a considerable output

Would it be too much to ask you to make a value judgement on any of these works, SW? Only having, iirc, heard

2009: On Willows and Birches, for Harp and Orchestra

Which I think was televised from Highgrove? I heard music that was pleasing enough in itself in a post-Irelandish way if rather lacking in depth.

[Nick Armstrong]

Would it be too much to ask you to make a value judgement on any of these works, SW?
I heard music that was pleasing enough in itself in a post-Irelandish way if rather lacking in depth.

I heard his 'Trees' bassoon concerto on COTW. That would be a good way to describe it, too.

[french frank]

And by all accounts, the white middle-class middle-aged music fans seem equally to dominate the jazz and folk festivals too. Part of the reason is arguably the total dominance of 'popular' music (of all the genres) among audiences of all ages. How it helps to spread such music even wider, and therefore cut back on the airtime for less popular genres, I can't see.

As for Stage & Screen, it was only introduced in 2001, so it's hard to see what changed in BBC attitudes between then and 2007 when it wss dropped again. The whole non-classical push was a failed attempt to get new listeners, so they changed tack and introduced the 'populist' (not my word - but commercial radio's) near-classical music in the hope of stopping the Radio 4 listeners who preferred CFM from switching over.

If personal views count for anything, I'm relaxed about a single CotW being 'out of the normal'. That wouldn't mean I think such ouput should become the normal.

Mr Pee ignoring the argument about jazz being a 'featured music' (Radio 3 service licence) of Radio 3. That's why it's not inconsistent to have a CotW on it. Many CotWs have multiple subjects like 'the Minimalists', 'the Parisian organists'.

The 'snobbishness' jibe is just silly: why should it be thought more 'snobbish' than saying a Beethoven String Quartet 'isn't what Radio 1 does'? It's called 'generic broadcasting' and the BBC introduced it in 1967.

As for JW's 'considerable' concert output - any ideas why it's seldom (ever?) played on Radio 3?