COTW - Film muzac

[Serial_Apologist]

Ferneyhoughgeliebte’s example about Psycho is interesting. I can imagine how unimpressive the scene must be without the music. On the other hand, if the music is played with no reference to the film to an audience who did not see the film, how interesting will the music be? I think this tells a lot about film music.

My strong suspicion is that that particular excerpt - the slashing music - was nicked from the ending of one of the movements of Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time - and in turn nicked for the shark attacks in Jaws.

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne
That’s because you heard the music with the film in the first place, not because the music has some intrinsic character or meaning about a flying bicycle. As I didn’t see the film, the music tells me nothing in particular. It can easily be about Superman or anything else for that matter.

And Jayne, I wouldn’t get too excited about Spielberg's childhood. It’s a confection to please adults or they wouldn't be so massively popular with adults. You wouldn’t want to be watching the reality of childhood which is most of the time being told by adults what not to do. Yes, of course children enjoy his films too because they are fun, not like their real lives.

Ferneyhoughgeliebte’s example about Psycho is interesting. I can imagine how unimpressive the scene must be without the music. On the other hand, if the music is played with no reference to the film to an audience who did not see the film, how interesting will the music be? I think this tells a lot about film music.

This isn't a response to MY post (no.70) - please read it again... a childlike sense of wonder isn't "Spielberg's childhood" - anyone can have it, find it, or lose it...

And fhg suggested that transferring shark-music to dinosaurs was easy because Williams' composition was too stylistically uniform. But for me each film has its own special atmosphere BECAUSE of the music being an essential part of it. As Mr. Pee implied, the idea that the ET music, out of context, tells you "nothing in particular" is true of most programme music, whether tonepoems or operatic interludes. Nevertheless, we usually pick up moods and evocations - love, death, joy and so on. Which is why, tangentially, if the Jaws theme had accompanied the Brachiosaur, it would have been less moving and memorable - inappropriately threatening. Or it would have undermined T.Rex's size and power... or made the raptors seem cruder and less cunning.

Not, of course, that anyone might have consciously thought those things....

[Pabmusic]

I've avoided quoting anyone, but would we be having a discussion along quite these lines if it was about Grieg's incidental music to Peer Gynt, Beethoven's to The Creatures of Prometheus, Fauré's to Pélleas et Mélisande, Delius's to Hassan, or Elgar's to The Starlight Express?

There was a Chandos CD a few months ago containing a suite from Parry's The Birds. I didn't read one review treating the music in the way we're doing here - the general view was "how good to hear this!". I'm not naif and freely admit there's lots of inferior film music, no doubt much more than there ever was inferior stage music (partly because there are many more films), but among it all are some real gems - rather a lot actually.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My strong suspicion is that that particular excerpt - the slashing music - was nicked from the ending of one of the movements of Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time - and in turn nicked for the shark attacks in Jaws.

Whoa, there, oh hexacordally inverted to complementation one! The "particular excerpt" dovers and I were referring to wasn't "the slashing Music", but the toccata-like material that accompanies the car drive that accompanies Marion's escaping with the money in the first 20 mins of the film - the car journey has to be long, because this explains why she's so tired she needs to stop at Bates' Motel, which is why the Music is needed.

if you listened to The Ride of The Valkyries without any knowledge of its context, you could say it could be about Superman or anything else, or indeed that it tells you nothing in particular. That doesn't devalue its worth as music.

Absolutely right. It's the notes, chords, rhythms and orchestration that Williams uses that "devalues its worth" for me: I just don't like them or find them "worth listening to" - especially now I've passed Fifty.

[french frank]

I've avoided quoting anyone, but would we be having a discussion along quite these lines if it was about Grieg's incidental music to Peer Gynt, Beethoven's to The Creatures of Prometheus, Fauré's to Pélleas et Mélisande, Delius's to Hassan, or Elgar's to The Starlight Express?

But none of these has been elevated to some sort of 'genre', worth exploring in its own right. We seldom get Proms concerts devoted to 'ballet music' or 'opera music' (though we may get a whole opera).

As for John Williams, now and again the R3 hierarchy has admitted some CotW ideas were not very suitable for the format - one such was Billy Mayerl, because 'his music didn't develop' in any way. That's not to take away from it the element of enjoyability and 'feel good' it can give. Apparently two programmes were centred on Star Wars...

[Pabmusic]

But none of these has been elevated to some sort of 'genre', worth exploring in its own right. We seldom get Proms concerts devoted to 'ballet music' or 'opera music' (though we may get a whole opera).

As for John Williams, now and again the R3 hierarchy has admitted some CotW ideas were not very suitable for the format - one such was Billy Mayerl, because 'his music didn't develop' in any way. That's not to take away from it the element of enjoyability and 'feel good' it can give. Apparently two programmes were centred on Star Wars...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating COTW being given over to film music - I don't like it - but I am objecting to some very dismissive comments about film music as a genre. Dismiss pieces of music, certainly; dismiss some composers, perhaps; but dismiss a type of music, and a type defined by its purpose at that?

[Flosshilde]

I've avoided quoting anyone, but would we be having a discussion along quite these lines if it was about Grieg's incidental music to Peer Gynt, Beethoven's to The Creatures of Prometheus, Fauré's to Pélleas et Mélisande, Delius's to Hassan, or Elgar's to The Starlight Express?.

Probably not, because in the context of the present discussion (ie five hour-long programmes, plus repeats) they wouldn't be the sole works discussed, but elements in a discussion of the composer's work. One programme might be devoted to any of those works, but not five (especially in today's dumbed-down R3 )

[french frank]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating COTW being given over to film music - I don't like it - but I am objecting to some very dismissive comments about film music as a genre. Dismiss pieces of music, certainly; dismiss some composers, perhaps; but dismiss a type of music, and a type defined by its purpose at that?

Yes, but you use the word 'genre'. The pro argument is that there is something musically distinct in it. If CotW got to the bottom of that (rather than discussing, say, biography or particular films), there would be a useful point to be made. Ditto the CotW on 'bebop'. What - genuine informational question - are we learning about 'film music' in this CotW? Or even about JW's music? In the old Stage & Screen strand, I did get the feeling it was an excuse for enthusiasts to enthuse about musicals and films, and that it was part of an agenda to bridge a perceived (note 'perceived') gap between classical music and 'popular' music.

But I acknowledge a complete incompetence to pronounce . I seldom go to the cinema, and this type of film (Spielberg/Williams) would not have been on my list of 'must-sees'.

[aeolium]

The pro argument is that there is something musically distinct in it.

Isn't what is musically distinct about film music that it is for the most part attempting to depict aurally a series of visual images, or at least create an atmosphere deliberately associated with those images, whereas the great majority of classical music does not do this, except at best with much ambiguity (as we were discussing on another thread)? But as Pabmusic suggested, ballet music is another form of programmatic music where the music has been created to represent scenes in the drama for the dancers - in its nature it does not seem to me very different from film music (especially film music for silent films, which is required to be continuous).

I agree with you that Stage and Screen, if it were still around, would be a better vehicle for film and stage music. On the other hand, film music is a distinct genre and one in which, as Pabmusic has said, there are some excellent compositions. Without S&S, what is the best programme for them on R3 (assuming you think they should be on R3)?

[doversoul1]

This isn't a response to MY post (no.70) - please read it again... a childlike sense of wonder isn't "Spielberg's childhood" - anyone can have it, find it, or lose it...

And fhg suggested that transferring shark-music to dinosaurs was easy because Williams' composition was too stylistically uniform. But for me each film has its own special atmosphere BECAUSE of the music being an essential part of it. As Mr. Pee implied, the idea that the ET music, out of context, tells you "nothing in particular" is true of most programme music, whether tonepoems or operatic interludes. Nevertheless, we usually pick up moods and evocations - love, death, joy and so on. Which is why, tangentially, if the Jaws theme had accompanied the Brachiosaur, it would have been less moving and memorable - inappropriately threatening. Or it would have undermined T.Rex's size and power... or made the raptors seem cruder and less cunning.

Jayne
Sorry, I didn’t make it clear. I did not mean Spielberg's own childhood, if that was how you read it. I meant the image of childhood crated by Spielberg for the films. My point is, the idea of ‘childlike sense of wonder’ is largely (if not all) a product of adults’ wistful thinking which is probably leftover form the Age of the Romantics. And ferneyhoughgeliebte’s point is, I think, if some of the music you have mentioned had been the original soundtrack of other films, for similar scenes, you’d probably be saying much the same thing.

..and Jayne

the idea that the ET music, out of context, tells you "nothing in particular" is true of most programme music, whether tonepoems or operatic interludes.

I’m not sure if this is the case. Film music can create a certain mood even if you don’t know the film but rarely does anything else. Whereas, for example, Janacek’s Along an Overgrown Path does not necessarily conjure up a particular scene or action but evokes any number of thoughts, and often different ones every time you (I) listen to it. This by no means devalues film music, as it is meant to create a particular atmosphere and not meant to send people deep into their own thoughts. And that is why, as I have said more than once, a radio programme like Composer of the Week is wasted on film music.

Pubmusic
I’m rather ignorant in this area but are those incidental music composed to fit the already existing productions? Did Mendelssohn compose A Midsummer Night's Dream to accompany an already set up production? Wasn’t Villa-Lobos asked to compose the music for the film Green Mansions and went and composed a symphonic poem of a kind, and was very upset when the director told him this was not what was wanted? He was supposed to compose to the film. There seems to be some difference between these works and film music.

[Pabmusic]

...are those incidental music composed to fit the already existing productions? ...

I'm not really sure, but Grieg's, Elgar's and Delius's music were certainly for the respective first productions.

[ahinton]

John Williams' music has often moved, soothed and entertained me - but always in the context of the films themselves. Weren't you welling up to THAT TUNE when the bicycles took off in ET, or thrilled to shivers as the helicopter approaches the island in Jurassic Park, when the great trumpet theme rings out (which, BTW, it doesn't do again until the T.Rex inadvertently saves the humans from the raptors near the end - what a great moment that is!) And the gravely beautiful, slow theme on the strings which accompanies the first appearance of the Brachiosaurus (the first really believable dino ever on screen) to the open-mouthed observers in the jeep, which, transformed into a sweet piano solo then swelling up in the orchestra once again, accompanies the battered survivors as they leave in the plane... it's all very symphonic and through-composed, and Spielberg said that he often cut the film to the music, reverse of the usual process!

Indeed - although I believe that Lumet also ultimately decided to cut the train starting up scene in Murder on the Orient Express to the magnificent waltz that Richard Rodney Bennett wisely told him would be far better than the kind of 30s reminiscence music that Lumet had originally wanted.

And I haven't yet mentioned the very 2nd-Viennese score to Close Encounters, or the use of the Kodaly melody in that film to communicate with the aliens... and then crown the climax. Not my top Spielberg film, but remarkable score again...!

Schindler's List was very different of course - did you know that Itzhak Perlman plays the violin solos in it?

Well, I knew that, but I find that its main theme is repeated so often as to cause irritation that is almost as powerful as is my response to the film (sorry!) of tastelessly glutinous sentimentality that forms all over it that I cannot watch it.

I don't tend to seek Williams' work out separately, but recognise it for what it is - great film music, and often very lovable and memorable.

A very sensible response as always, Jayne; one has only to think of Olivier's observation that the Henry V movie was saved only by Walton's music for it to recognise that music can occupy and deserve a special place in movies and that, as some of it also occasionally gets adapted for concert use, it should be given its due place; whether that place is a whole week's worth of COTW, however, might reasonably be seen as somewhat questionable, even when its composer is as adept at it as John Williams...

[ahinton]

Through a freak of R3 programming we were offered two broadcasts of Richard Adinsell's Warsaw Concerto from Dangerous Moonlight, in itself now forgotten, broadcast on TTN on Friday then again on Breakfast on Sunday. For me the first hearing was of a curiosity; the second hearing rather tedious: it's quite a good pastiche of a Rach-like concerto, and I imagine worked well in the cinema, but in and of itself trite.

It's very trite indeed, but at least it inspired Sorabji to write the brief and hilarious chapter When is a Concerto not a Concerto? in his book of essays Mi Contra Fa: The Immoralisings of a Machiavellian Musician (sorry - it's not available online so I can't provide a link); I don't think, however, that Sorabji was aware that the makers of that movie had actually asked Rachmaninov himself to write music for it and he had declined. As to Addinsell's piece (which did for a time enjoy something of an independent concert life), I remember thinking at the UK (Proms) première of Carter's Boston Concerto (written for that city's orchestra) that it was perhaps a good thing that it had not been composed to a commission for the Warsaw PO...

Elevating film music to concert/broadcast status is a relatively recent R3 benediction.

I don't agree; certain movie music had already succeeded in achieving independent (i.e. concert) status (even if only limited and for a limited time) before BBC's Third Programme was so much as a wotsit in Auntie's eye.

[french frank]

Isn't what is musically distinct about film music that it is for the most part attempting to depict aurally a series of visual images, or at least create an atmosphere deliberately associated with those images, whereas the great majority of classical music does not do this, except at best with much ambiguity (as we were discussing on another thread)?

Yes, but that's a definition of the 'genre'. Discussion of how effects are achieved, what effects are achieved, an idea of the composer's aims in a general way, rather than in the narrow context of one film. Otherwise I don't see the point of calling it a 'genre' - it's just music, isn't it?

But as Pabmusic suggested, ballet music is another form of programmatic music where the music has been created to represent scenes in the drama for the dancers - in its nature it does not seem to me very different from film music (especially film music for silent films, which is required to be continuous).

I agree with you that Stage and Screen, if it were still around, would be a better vehicle for film and stage music. On the other hand, film music is a distinct genre and one in which, as Pabmusic has said, there are some excellent compositions. Without S&S, what is the best programme for them on R3 (assuming you think they should be on R3)?

Oh, what's its name - the same one that discusses ballet each week ...

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne
Sorry, I didn’t make it clear. I did not mean Spielberg's own childhood, if that was how you read it. I meant the image of childhood crated by Spielberg for the films. My point is, the idea of ‘childlike sense of wonder’ is largely (if not all) a product of adults’ wistful thinking which is probably leftover form the Age of the Romantics. And ferneyhoughgeliebte’s point is, I think, if some of the music you have mentioned had been the original soundtrack of other films, for similar scenes, you’d probably be saying much the same thing.

..and Jayne

I’m not sure if this is the case. Film music can create a certain mood even if you don’t know the film but rarely does anything else. Whereas, for example, Janacek’s Along an Overgrown Path does not necessarily conjure up a particular scene or action but evokes any number of thoughts, and often different ones every time you (I) listen to it. This by no means devalues film music, as it is meant to create a particular atmosphere and not meant to send people deep into their own thoughts. And that is why, as I have said more than once, a radio programme like Composer of the Week is wasted on film music.

Pubmusic
I’m rather ignorant in this area but are those incidental music composed to fit the already existing productions? Did Mendelssohn compose A Midsummer Night's Dream to accompany an already set up production? Wasn’t Villa-Lobos asked to compose the music for the film Green Mansions and went and composed a symphonic poem of a kind, and was very upset when the director told him this was not what was wanted? He was supposed to compose to the film. There seems to be some difference between these works and film music.

That's a strange response again, which seems to scan my post 77 rather than read it... it was precisely because the scenes were NOT similar that Jaws wouldn't match Brachiosaurs. And it's a shame you didn't quote my last line, which is important. You can feel uneasy without knowing why.

Spielberg's conception of childhood is not the rosy myth you suggest. In ET, we begin with Goverment agents spying on the spaceship - this is how ET, collecting plants, gets left behind. The kids spend most of their time trying to avoid the adults discovering their big secret; and the State Machinery soon moves in, white coats and all, to capture ET for scientific study, even if they try to save his life first (and seem to fail). The bicycle scene is literally an escape from pursuing adults who threaten what is precious to the children. All seems rather archetypal to me, just as the T.Rex trying to eat the kids in Jurassic Park reminds me of my own early nightmares - a cloaked spectre who made me fall off a high roof, a giant man's shadow across the bedroom curtains...

I felt that sense of wonder a few weeks ago when ring-necked parakeets appeared in my garden for the first time. (Delighted to say they've taken up local residence). Or when a young fox came close to hand last summer to feed. (And like fhg, I'm past 50...)

On topic, when it comes to a week of programmes about a composer of film music - well, don't ask why, but why not... if it hasn't worked for some, OK. I get a thrill whenever one of those famous excerpts sounds out, but no, I wouldn't sit and listen to this CotW as if to a series of Roussel symphonies..