Beethoven - which Eroica?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Did Beethoven, as Ries asserted, get very irate about slow performances of his work, and thus take advantage of Mälzel's device to give clear guidance, or did he not?

He got irate about many things, but it really doesn't matter.

[Bryn]

He got irate about many things, but it really doesn't matter.

Ah well, in that case ...

[Sir Velo]

Quite apart from whether composers should be the sole arbiters of performance practice (do we expect every stage instruction in Shakespeare to be observed?) there are many well documented instances of composers playing their music at different tempi than initially asked for in their metronome markings, and that actual performance tempo often tends to get a bit slower. Composers frequently revise their tempo instructions after hearing the work in performance, and learning what effects are achieved and what works and what doesn't. Sadly, that was a luxury denied to LvB.

[rauschwerk]

I am sorry if anything I wrote influenced this thread in the direction of geeky arguments about timings. Beethoven was very clear that he intended his metronome markings to apply only to the opening bars of a movement (or section of one). No decent musician would attempt to maintain the opening tempo rigidly throughout a movement. Therefore an overall timing tells us little about the initial tempo and nothing at all about the musical qualities of a performance.

I prefer the Eroica funeral march to begin at about quaver = 80 and at that speed in a sensitive performance it certainly doesn't sound to me "matter of fact", "sub jovial", "a scherzo" or "as if the players just want to get to the pub", even though I was brought up on Kleiber who took it a good deal slower than that.

[Suffolkcoastal]

As EA points out the opening tempo is marked 'Adagio Assai', not Andante or Allegretto. The figuration in the basses needs to be clean and heard if its ever so slightly scrambled or become too much of an upbeat than the tempo is too fast, if that figure feels like its dragging then the tempo is too slow. But also as rauschwerk point out, the tempo shouldn't be rigid throughout, there needs to be some flexibility, the fugal section for example needs to 'push forward' otherwise it can sound too heavy.

[Pabmusic]

...I prefer the Eroica funeral march to begin at about quaver = 80 and at that speed in a sensitive performance it certainly doesn't sound to me "matter of fact", "sub jovial", "a scherzo" or "as if the players just want to get to the pub", even though I was brought up on Kleiber who took it a good deal slower than that.

I looked in Norman del Mar's invaluable Conducting Beethoven, and he says this:

The printed metronome mark of [quaver]=80...is very nearly twice too fast for any interpretation which is to convey the epic quality of this music. There will naturally be variations of pulse during the mamy contrasted sections of the movement, but if the profoundly tragic opening and equally its return at the Minore of bar 105 are to be played with any realisation of the music's sense of utter desolation it can hardly be taken faster than [quaver]=48.

Obviously, that is an opinion that would be challenged by some, but it is a reasoned one from a respected conductor and teacher.

[Thropplenoggin]

I have to say, this is the kind of thread that I love to watch unfold. So many knowledgeable people, so many competing ideas.

"Great stuff, guys!"*

*a nod to 'Bogbrush' from Private Eye's 'From The Messageboards' section.

[Bryn]

I looked in Norman del Mar's invaluable Conducting Beethoven, and he says this:

The printed metronome mark of [quaver]=80...is very nearly twice too fast for any interpretation which is to convey the epic quality of this music. There will naturally be variations of pulse during the mamy contrasted sections of the movement, but if the profoundly tragic opening and equally its return at the Minore of bar 105 are to be played with any realisation of the music's sense of utter desolation it can hardly be taken faster than [quaver]=48.

Obviously, that is an opinion that would be challenged by some, ...

The composer, for instance. He did, after all, add the metronome markings a very considerable time after it had received performances which he heard He was not half as deaf as some would have you believe, even by the time he came to add the metronome marks. His hearing was seriously impaired, certainly, but it was only much later in his life that he was quite unable to hear just about anything. Also bear in mind Ries's reported comment re. the total duration intended for the symphony being no more that 45 minutes.

[rauschwerk]

Obviously, that is an opinion that would be challenged by some, but it is a reasoned one from a respected conductor and teacher.

With great respect to Mr del Mar's memory, I don't think it is reasoned at all - it's based purely on intuition. And I don't think I have ever heard a performance as slow as that!

[Pabmusic]

With great respect to Mr del Mar's memory, I don't think it is reasoned at all - it's based purely on intuition. And I don't think I have ever heard a performance as slow as that!

Of course it's reasoned - he gives his reasoning. You (I guess) don't agree with the speed, but you can't dismiss the thought that's behind it.

Now for my say. I've conducted Eroica twice, and I found that about 66 quavers at the start was comfortable for all. Obviously you don't consult a metronome in a concert, but I guess it was about that speed.

As for Beethoven's wishes, well it's difficult. Let's assume that he had a reliable metronome and that, after long consideration, he gave a final ruling. Does that mean one can never vary from it? To say yes would imply that performances are only acceptable that comply with 200-year-old criteria . It would imply, too, that Beethoven was incapable of changing his mind, and that the thought of one moment should hold sway for all eternity, simply because there is nothing to contradict it. It may be that Beethoven did change his mind, but that no record of that survives.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have to say, this is the kind of thread that I love to watch unfold. So many knowledgeable people, so many competing ...

It always generates interest, whenever the subject of metronome speeds is brought up. I think some advocates are sincere in believing it's desirable to adhere to every one of the composer's markings, but I also think there can be a tinge of obsessive compulsive tendency when the number crunching begins to take over from the soul of the music.

[cloughie]

It always generates interest, whenever the subject of metronome speeds is brought up. I think some advocates are sincere in believing it's desirable to adhere to every one of the composer's markings, but I also think there can be a tinge of obsessive compulsive tendency when the number crunching begins to take over from the soul of the music.

I often wonder if Elgar changed his mind on the tempi of his second symphony when it came to recording them and how conductors such as Solti took those tempi as Elgar's definitive speeds.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I often wonder if Elgar changed his mind on the tempi of his second symphony when it came to recording them and how conductors such as Solti took those tempi as Elgar's definitive speeds.

Strauss gave wildly different timings in his two recordings of the Alpine Symphony

[cloughie]

No, they simply re-arranged the music to suit their tastes. It wasn't Beethoven, but it was sort of based on what he wrote.

But in the best possible taste. Actually Bryn, I think I've ceased to be amazed at some of the things you come out with to justify your preferred delivery style!

[Thropplenoggin]

But in the best possible taste. Actually Bryn, I think I've ceased to be amazed at some of the things you come out with to justify your preferred delivery style!