CotW - Big Band Jazz

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

yes to an extent; perhaps i was atouch unkind but Whiteman and Redman and Sebesky are not cornerstones of the Jazz Canon ....

and listening now to part 2 i am struck by how popularity is the criterion of selection as much if not more than quality; and since this era of America is disgusting in its racism i find the selection something of an affront to jazz

i doubt this would be the selection taken in a French history of big bands for example ...

some omissions from the five programmes: Woody Herman, Gerald Wilson, Gerry Mulligan [stupendous band], Lucky Millinder, Savoy Sultans, not nearly enough on the Ellington or Basie Bands, Cab Calloway and many smaller ensembles have bearing on the arrangers art, voicing, counterpoint &c ..... and so on ... and no modern day bands at all - there are a surprising number of modern jazz orchestras [Brookmeyer, Vanguard, Schneider, Hollenbeck to mention only some of Ian T's fave raves]

[Quarky]

Listening tonight to Guy Barker's The Soho Symphony, I was struck by how little this was influenced by Jazz - more in the English tradition of composition I would think - RVW etc. That's not intended as a criticism, but might explain somewhat Guy Barker's perspectives on Big Band Jazz.

[Nick Armstrong]

What struck me listening to Guy Barker on this evening's COTW was that he failed to deliver decent answers to DM's questions. On 2 occasions, he was asked to define what distinguished a particular band's style - each time, he flannelled with some generalised comments, ending by simply saying it was really distinctive

A disappointing contributor - but I enjoyed the music greatly!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

yep lovely music and carping is a waste of time really ... indulge!



ahem wot no Chico O'Farrill and Cuban Bop? and the long tradition of orchestral jazz in Cuba

[Serial_Apologist]

A week-long resume of Big Band Jazz history should never have concluded on a track recorded in 1960. The overall impression to be gleaned from the selection, that everything reached its apogee on Thursday, will have been unhelpful to anyone not familiar. As Mr Barker admitted the subject could have been tackled from many different angles, but here what amounted to a single line Ken Burns school-type representation barely skated the surfaces let alone any byways.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

agree but i am a complete sucker for Miles Ahead and P&B and SOS .... idiosyncratic eh and lacking analytical depth and bite

[Quarky]

A week-long resume of Big Band Jazz history should never have concluded on a track recorded in 1960. The overall impression to be gleaned from the selection, that everything reached its apogee on Thursday, will have been unhelpful to anyone not familiar. As Mr Barker admitted the subject could have been tackled from many different angles, but here what amounted to a single line Ken Burns school-type representation barely skated the surfaces let alone any byways.

We have spent the week listening to Guy Barker's CD collection. Not without value, I'm back in line with Gil Evans. And I know a lot more about Guy Barker, who seems to be an important figure, at least within the BBC, and arranging concerts with Shorter, Clowes.

But a highly personal and inaccurate review of Big Band history, with huge omissions. What happened to Charlie Mingus? I expected a higher quality programme from CotW.

[Nick Armstrong]

agree but i am a complete sucker for Miles Ahead

So am I - but didn't need CotW to remind me. Few CDs have been played more often in my various cars over the years.

I also loved the Maria Schneider Orchestra in Sky Blue*. Just listening again having bought the track for 99p on iTunes

But I agree with Oddball. Maybe they should do a second pass over the subject, with Mr Shipton doing the double-act with DM....

.


* I do wish they wouldn't use those naff tinkly swishing percussion instruments, lots of little metallic strips hanging down, and rippled with a drumstick... what are they called?? - they're used in crap 70s or 80s easy listening orchestras - sort of fey, sparkly sound... I really, really hate them! ... it only occurs twice on the track, it would be so much better without but I can live with it!

[Serial_Apologist]

So am I - but didn't need CotW to remind me. Few CDs have been played more often in my various cars over the years.

I also loved the Maria Schneider Orchestra in Sky Blue*. Just listening again having bought the track for 99p on iTunes

But I agree with Oddball. Maybe they should do a second pass over the subject, with Mr Shipton doing the double-act with DM....

.


* I do wish they wouldn't use those naff tinkly swishing percussion instruments, lots of little metallic strips hanging down, and rippled with a drumstick... what are they called?? - they're used in crap 70s or 80s easy listening orchestras - sort of fey, sparkly sound... I really, really hate them! ... it only occurs twice on the track, it would be so much better without but I can live with it!

Crotales?

[Nick Armstrong]

Crotales?

No, I always walk like this.

ahem... not it's not those.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

... line bell?

[Rcartes]

yes to an extent; perhaps i was atouch unkind but Whiteman and Redman and Sebesky are not cornerstones of the Jazz Canon ....

and listening now to part 2 i am struck by how popularity is the criterion of selection as much if not more than quality; and since this era of America is disgusting in its racism i find the selection something of an affront to jazz

i doubt this would be the selection taken in a French history of big bands for example ...

Some omissions from the five programmes: Woody Herman, Gerald Wilson, Gerry Mulligan [stupendous band], Lucky Millinder, Savoy Sultans, not nearly enough on the Ellington or Basie Bands, Cab Calloway and many smaller ensembles have bearing on the arrangers art, voicing, counterpoint &c ..... and so on ... and no modern day bands at all - there are a surprising number of modern jazz orchestras [Brookmeyer, Vanguard, Schneider, Hollenbeck to mention only some of Ian T's fave raves]

Agreed about Whiteman, but a bit harsh on Don Redman? And the lack of Woody Herman (and to a lesser extent the Mulligan Tentette) was a terrible omission.

A couple of more detailed observations: part 2 was a bit of a disappointment with that dismal, absolutely interminable Sing Sing Sing, far better to have included King Porter Stomp especially for the Bunny Berigan contribution). And one track only by Basie, not to mention the extraordinary inclusion of Glenn Miller's slop! Not even jazz, and despite one of them saying it was full of great jazz musicians, that was one of the things it lacked most. Far more appropriate to have included instead one of the Berigan big band tracks.

The Bebop part was a bit of a mess, too: three tracks by Claude Thornhill! I'd have left out the tedious La Paloma and included instead one by the Earl Hines band, mentioned but not played (why not At the El Grotto, with Wardell Gray's elegant first solo on disc?)

One more thing: Donald Macleod made rather a mess of referring to Coop de Graas (one of my favourite big band tracks) with one of the most brilliant titles in jazz: he said that the "Coop" referred to chicken coop, but it was actually Bob Cooper's nickname, and Macleod didn't even mention him, though he did refer to John Graas; who did he think took the tenor solos?

[Nick Armstrong]

... line bell?

Not that either! This is driving me nuts (said the man with the steering wheel on his... ahem...)

The hanging metal strips are very close together and very thin - the instrument looks like a fringe of silver foil strips, but they are obviously more substantial, to make the ripply tinkly noise.

This is the first time for years that I've totally failed to find something on google!

[Serial_Apologist]

Not that either! This is driving me nuts (said the man with the steering wheel on his... ahem...)

The hanging metal strips are very close together and very thin - the instrument looks like a fringe of silver foil strips, but they are obviously more substantial, to make the ripply tinkly noise.

This is the first time for years that I've totally failed to find something on google!

Wind chimes

[Nick Armstrong]

Wind chimes

nope...