A new presenter for COTW

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  • smittims
    Full Member
    • Aug 2022
    • 4384

    #31
    Thanks for your considered reply, Serial Apologist. I agre that biographical infomation can be useful - if it's accurate. If it isn't, it can be misleading, as on the day I wanted to jump up and down and throw things at the radio on being told that Vaiughan Williams was 'conscripted' in the Great War. Perhaps, as you suggest, a balanced approach is best. But I have noticed that Radio3 presenters don't talk about music much. Even when it's an opera, they discuss the story , not the music.

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    • Ein Heldenleben
      Full Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 6962

      #32
      Originally posted by smittims View Post
      Thanks for your considered reply, Serial Apologist. I agre that biographical infomation can be useful - if it's accurate. If it isn't, it can be misleading, as on the day I wanted to jump up and down and throw things at the radio on being told that Vaiughan Williams was 'conscripted' in the Great War. Perhaps, as you suggest, a balanced approach is best. But I have noticed that Radio3 presenters don't talk about music much. Even when it's an opera, they discuss the story , not the music.
      Was that really COTW or another programme ? Very surprised they could make such a basic mistake . After a series of on air errors I once pompously announced I was having an “accuracy crackdown “ to which one wag responded :
      “ actually ,on a point of accuracy , shouldn’t that be an inaccuracy crackdown? “

      Comment

      • Master Jacques
        Full Member
        • Feb 2012
        • 1953

        #33
        Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
        Was that really COTW or another programme ? Very surprised they could make such a basic mistake . After a series of on air errors I once pompously announced I was having an “accuracy crackdown “ to which one wag responded :
        “ actually ,on a point of accuracy , shouldn’t that be an inaccuracy crackdown? “
        I like that! To my mind, there have been rather too many "basic mistakes" lately in CotW to maintain its former quality and reliability. How far this is down to intern howlers, it's for the producers to say - assuming they bother to chase them up, once alerted to them. My polite listing of several basic biographical/musicological errors in a recent week devoted to Falla received no response. As it seems they aren't investing enough into getting things right, and don't want to know where they're getting things wrong, I won't bother to contact them again.

        Like most other BBC radio programmes, CotW seems intent on distancing itself as far as possible from meaningful dialogue with listeners.

        Comment

        • Ein Heldenleben
          Full Member
          • Apr 2014
          • 6962

          #34
          Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post
          I like that! To my mind, there have been rather too many "basic mistakes" lately in CotW to maintain its former quality and reliability. How far this is down to intern howlers, it's for the producers to say - assuming they bother to chase them up, once alerted to them. My polite listing of several basic biographical/musicological errors in a recent week devoted to Falla received no response. As it seems they aren't investing enough into getting things right, and don't want to know where they're getting things wrong, I won't bother to contact them again.

          Like most other BBC radio programmes, CotW seems intent on distancing itself as far as possible from meaningful dialogue with listeners.
          I would be surprised if there’s much unpaid intern work . The BBC rules used to be a max of two weeks unpaid work experience . The long term unpaid intern role simply didn’t exist - the unions didn’t approve and it is far too risky editorially.. No one within their right mind would let a script written by an intern be transmitted. Indeed in my view it would be improper to ask them to write one.

          Comment

          • Master Jacques
            Full Member
            • Feb 2012
            • 1953

            #35
            Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
            I would be surprised if there’s much unpaid intern work . The BBC rules used to be a max of two weeks unpaid work experience . The long term unpaid intern role simply didn’t exist - the unions didn’t approve and it is far too risky editorially.. No one within their right mind would let a script written by an intern be transmitted. Indeed in my view it would be improper to ask them to write one.
            I quite agree it would be improper, and am sure you are right, that this is not how it works. "Intern" isn't quite the right expression for recent graduates, probably receiving very low fees from BBC Cymru for their work; but the word does convey my sense of the lack of expert engagement with biographical and musical material - a jejune tint, which has crept into CotW scripts.

            Comment

            • Ein Heldenleben
              Full Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 6962

              #36
              Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post
              I quite agree it would be improper, and am sure you are right, that this is not how it works. "Intern" isn't quite the right expression for recent graduates, probably receiving very low fees from BBC Cymru for their work; but the word does convey my sense of the lack of expert engagement with biographical and musical material - a jejune tint, which has crept into CotW scripts.
              Apologies for correcting you but the producers in COTW would probably be on a standard National salary range for that role.In fact , even allowing for the (paltry ) London weighting , their salary in Wales would probably go further than in the smoke. But sadly no freebie tickets to concerts other than WNO or the BBC NOW.

              Incidentally in the (factual) area I worked in replying to letters alleging inaccuracy was absolutely compulsory and the response rate monitored by an independent department.

              Comment

              • Master Jacques
                Full Member
                • Feb 2012
                • 1953

                #37
                Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
                Apologies for correcting you but the producers in COTW would probably be on a standard National salary range for that role.In fact , even allowing for the (paltry ) London weighting , their salary in Wales would probably go further than in the smoke. But sadly no freebie tickets to concerts other than WNO or the BBC NOW.

                Incidentally in the (factual) area I worked in replying to letters alleging inaccuracy was absolutely compulsory and the response rate monitored by an independent department.
                I'm sure the producers would be on a permanent salary, but doubt that would apply to researchers. We could always mail them to find out ... though I fancy another long silence might result! As for replies, I've had the pro-forma automatic responses ("we're sorry you didn't find this programme to your taste") but never a proper reply acknowledging any inaccuracies. Doubtless they consider that means they met the response standard adequately. It does not meet my standards, alas.
                Last edited by Master Jacques; 18-05-23, 12:26. Reason: typo corrected

                Comment

                • Ein Heldenleben
                  Full Member
                  • Apr 2014
                  • 6962

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post
                  I'm sure the producers would be on a permanent salary, but doubt that would apply to researchers. We could always mail them to find out ... though I fancy another long silence might result! As for replies, I've had the pro-forma automatic responses ("we're sorry you didn't find this programme to your taste") but never a proper reply acknowledging any inaccuracies. Doubtless they consider that means they met the response standard adequately. It does not meet my standards, alas.
                  My guess is the department is so overworked they don’t have time to reply to anything other than serious complaints. I would be surprised if there are any researchers at all - radio budgets are tiny. One of the reasons I got out of radio in the 80’s was I realised that I couldn’t afford to live in London on a radio salary. A long time ago but when I did work there radio researchers were some of the most overworked and generally put upon people I’ve met in the media - whereas telly in the 80’s and 90’s was heavily unionised and well funded.

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37851

                    #39
                    Incidentally, a departure from what I said yesterday in regards to inadequate coverage of compositional procedures could be noted in next Thursday's COTW on Ligeti, in that the RT blurb states, "Kate Molleson explores Ligeti's process of writing music, as explained by the composer"; but I rather suspect this will be undertaken in simplified terms, while hoping I may be wrong. As to french frank's question, was COTW ever the type of programme that delved into such perspectives, maybe not - although I would have to check a few old cassettes to compare - but there's nothing to say it could never be!

                    Comment

                    • Master Jacques
                      Full Member
                      • Feb 2012
                      • 1953

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                      Incidentally, a departure from what I said yesterday in regards to inadequate coverage of compositional procedures could be noted in next Thursday's COTW on Ligeti, in that the RT blurb states, "Kate Molleson explores Ligeti's process of writing music, as explained by the composer"
                      The worry here, is that we'll have Ligeti's process of writing music, as explained by the composer, and unsubtly reframed by Kate Molleson.

                      Comment

                      • oddoneout
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2015
                        • 9306

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post
                        The worry here, is that we'll have Ligeti's process of writing music, as explained by the composer, and unsubtly reframed by Kate Molleson.
                        As someone who knows nothing about Ligeti (although I have heard some of his music over the years), that wouldn't automatically be a negative for me, unless KM makes mistakes(which I wouldn't in any case know) in her retelling. But that is a risk that is not unique to CotW; I could turn to other sources and possibly pick up erroneous information - or suspect opinion/interpretation.
                        Those with comprehensive knowledge of a composer are not perhaps the intended audience for CotW treatment of that composer? In the same way Monty Don's basic "how to" sections on the GW TV programmes are not primarily aimed at those, such as myself, who have been gardening for decades, although that is not to say that in either case the possibility of learning something new does not exist.

                        Comment

                        • Master Jacques
                          Full Member
                          • Feb 2012
                          • 1953

                          #42
                          Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                          Those with comprehensive knowledge of a composer are not perhaps the intended audience for CotW treatment of that composer? In the same way Monty Don's basic "how to" sections on the GW TV programmes are not primarily aimed at those, such as myself, who have been gardening for decades, although that is not to say that in either case the possibility of learning something new does not exist.
                          There is wisdom in what you say: the best presenters/experts have that special knack of presenting the basics for newcomers, while always having "something new" for the old hands.

                          The problem comes with presenters who condescend to their audiences, old and new, by skewing and/or over-simplifying material in order to make it fit their particular prejudices and pet theories. But despite her record, let's not prejudge Ms Molleson - proof of the pudding, and all that!

                          Comment

                          • french frank
                            Administrator/Moderator
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 30507

                            #43
                            Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                            Those with comprehensive knowledge of a composer are not perhaps the intended audience for CotW treatment of that composer?
                            I have a feeling that CotW has long been something of a problem for R3 schedulers. 09.00 was always the time, or immediately following whatever filled the 'breakfast' slot (NB NOT Breakfast in those days). In 1995, the 9am slot was given (controller N Kenyon) to Paul Gambaccini's Morning Collection and CotW was shunted to 12pm. I leave it to others to decide what that particular strategy was designed to achieve. In 1999 it was moved back (controller R Wright) to 9am, but by 2003 he had introduced CD Masters for the post-breakfast slot, and CotW was shunted back to 12pm.

                            Very briefly in 2007 CotW (repeat) occupied the post evening concert slot. This was the time of the ill-fated decision to start the (recorded, lightly edited) 'live' concert at 7pm for a fixed 105(?) minutes slot. I suppose something was needed to fill the rest of the evening and CotW was a handy filler..

                            My view is that there was a sort of tension between the view that CotW was an erudite programme which had no business being on in the prime 09.00 slot because the 'lighter' breakfast listeners would turn off, and the view that CotW could be made less erudite in order to keep the casual listener tuned in. (On which today's Rajar figures are of some relevance)
                            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                            Comment

                            • Serial_Apologist
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 37851

                              #44
                              Originally posted by french frank View Post
                              I have a feeling that CotW has long been something of a problem for R3 schedulers. 09.00 was always the time, or immediately following whatever filled the 'breakfast' slot (NB NOT Breakfast in those days). In 1995, the 9am slot was given (controller N Kenyon) to Paul Gambaccini's Morning Collection and CotW was shunted to 12pm. I leave it to others to decide what that particular strategy was designed to achieve. In 1999 it was moved back (controller R Wright) to 9am, but by 2003 he had introduced CD Masters for the post-breakfast slot, and CotW was shunted back to 12pm.

                              Very briefly in 2007 CotW (repeat) occupied the post evening concert slot. This was the time of the ill-fated decision to start the (recorded, lightly edited) 'live' concert at 7pm for a fixed 105(?) minutes slot. I suppose something was needed to fill the rest of the evening and CotW was a handy filler..

                              My view is that there was a sort of tension between the view that CotW was an erudite programme which had no business being on in the prime 09.00 slot because the 'lighter' breakfast listeners would turn off, and the view that CotW could be made less erudite in order to keep the casual listener tuned in. (On which today's Rajar figures are of some relevance)
                              Interesting thoughts - it had not occurred to me to think in terms of the positioning of COTW on the daily schedule and the way in which the character of the programme might have to "fit in".

                              Comment

                              • oddoneout
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2015
                                • 9306

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                                Interesting thoughts - it had not occurred to me to think in terms of the positioning of COTW on the daily schedule and the way in which the character of the programme might have to "fit in".
                                That is presumably less of a consideration now though, since the assumption is that very few listen to radio as it happens? I used to find the 9am slot worked well for me, catching up at 6pm for those which got missed. The midday slot I don't find so good despite now having considerably more freedom to order my day, as late morning is when I tend to be out doing volunteering, errands, shopping, and so I miss at least part of the broadcast.. Knowing my luck, as and when I get set-up to "listen again", I'll find that either it's been changed to a point that I am no longer interested or (I sincerely hope not) ditched altogether!

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