Mark-Anthony Turnage (b. 1960)

[french frank]

What's useful about middle of the road composers?

Depends what you think of as being 'useful', but they might have wider appeal than the cutting edge innovators?

[RichardB]

Depends what you think of as being 'useful', but they might have wider appeal than the cutting edge innovators?

Hardly any of the "classical" composers most people listen to nowadays would have been described as "middle of the road composers" in their time, when indeed they might not have had as wide an appeal as their less "cutting edge" contemporaries. But if "wider appeal" is what's important there's always the aforementioned Adele.

[Serial_Apologist]

Hardly any of the "classical" composers most people listen to nowadays would have been described as "middle of the road composers" in their time, when indeed they might not have had as wide an appeal as their less "cutting edge" contemporaries. But if "wider appeal" is what's important there's always the aforementioned Adele.

Yes but over much of the history of western music whatever deviations from going norms were considered such were minor in aesthetics and structural terms compared to the wholesale challenges across different trends to existing governing principles between 1900 and 1923 as composers either challenged the hegemony of post-Wagnerian and Brahmsian models or stretched them beyond what even Mahler and Strauss considered acceptable, creating huge gulfs with audiences lasting decades. I can only think of one historical period to compare in terms of magnitude of change than that which unfolded roughly between 1590 and 1640 with the rise to dominance of diatonic homophony over modal polyphony, starting in Italy, with all the longterm implications for compositional subject matter, structure, new types of purely instrumental composition, copyright, advances in instrument technology and the broadening of the "audience base". In the wake of that period it might seem that composers could either take on board the implications of the musical revolution or revolutions that had taken place, or retrench themselves in the preceding era, but most of the composers whose music should by now be relatively familiar to classical music appreciators adopted a "middle way" compromise, some, for instance Poulenc, Martinu or Honegger, incorporating modernist elements within broadly traditional frameworks. Something similar would happen in jazz after 1940. I would see a composer such as Turnage as being within that mainstream.

[RichardB]

some, for instance Poulenc, Martinu or Honegger, incorporating modernist elements within broadly traditional frameworks. Something similar would happen in jazz after 1940. I would see a composer such as Turnage as being within that mainstream.

Although I'm not sure about "modernist elements" there; populist elements, sure.

[ahinton]

Mightn't one problem of being "middle of the road" be the risk of being knocked down by traffic coming from either direction?

Also, "useful" sounds just SO Benjamin Britten, who seemed to value that characteristic very highly indeed...

[french frank]

Hardly any of the "classical" composers most people listen to nowadays would have been described as "middle of the road composers" in their time,

But the road might have been much narrower in their time.

[cloughie]

But the road might have been much narrower in their time.

…and probably no white lines and metalling but with some twists and turnages to negotiate!

[Serial_Apologist]

But the road might have been much narrower in their time.

There weren't as many genres for musicians to negotiate, and messages were less "mixed", back in earlier ages!

[french frank]

There weren't as many genres for musicians to negotiate, and messages were less "mixed", back in earlier ages!

Exactement. You could be walking on the grass verge and still not be too far from the middle of the road.

[RichardB]

There weren't as many genres for musicians to negotiate

I don't really see what that (or the relative width of the road, whatever that means) has to do with it! But OK, I see that I'm not getting anywhere.

[Serial_Apologist]

It would be a shame were this discussion to end leaving bad feelings.

My own acquaintance with Turnage goes back to 1992, at Kenny Wheeler's 60th birthday tribute concert at the South Bank, when, in the bookshop before the event, Ian Carr, the jazz trumpeter, introduced us. I was then familiar with all Turnage's broadcast music, which would have been most of what he had composed up to that point, and liked what I had heard. It was no great surprise to me that these two should have been acquainted - Turnage enjoyed some kudos on the domestic jazz scene through his association with the two highly respected and admired jazz musicians who had performed in his "Blood on the Floor" around that time - the drummer Peter Erskine and the guitarist John Scofieldd. Years later I was in a position to "return" that introduction at one of the freebie lunchtime jazz gigs in the bar at the Festival Hall. I spotted Turnage at one of the tables to the left of the bar as one faced the bandstand; Ian Carr, by then suffering with dementia, was at the opposite end, among a group of musicians I also recognised, so I went over to Turnage to re-introduce myself, asking if he had noticed Ian, and maybe he would like to join me to say hello. Turnage had heard about Ian's condition and the way he spoke to Ian seemed to me to say a great deal about the decent sort of person I took him to be.

It may be the case that I am too much given to speaking positively about Turnage on the basis of what I knew of his music up to that point, and of having briefly met him: the truth is that I have not followed his career to anything like the same degree since that time - somewhere around 2008 - so this week's COTW is an opportunity for catching up. Suffice it to say that Turnage has worked with personalities well known in jazz worldwide, including the bass player Dave Holland, and a number of leading lights on the home scene, such as Iain Ballamy, John Parricelli, John Taylor and Django Bates.

I am sure Turnage has turned out work of variable quality, as have all composers, and that there are let's say things about him that some have found questionable for reasons that have to do with the questionability of the success he has won on the musical establishment's terms. But I leave it to readers to decide if the implicit respect accorded Turnage by musicians not usually known to be short of a gig is justified or not. I believe his usefulness - a bad term of description, I admit - lies in his music offering a way into "modern music" for many who, like me in my younger days as a listener, wanted to find my own way into it.

[RichardB]

It would be a shame were this discussion to end leaving bad feelings.

Of course there are no bad feelings! We don't have to agree on everything.

But: composing music that some famous jazz musicians have been involved in playing doesn't quite count as "working with" them in the sense that actually performing with them would have, in my opinion. As in those of us who might have played with Evan Parker at the London Jazz Festival and then the next day a premiere with Elision at the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival*, and all that without a hint of "eclecticism", so pardon me if I'm not too impressed with what MT gets up to!

*17 and 18 November 2006

[Quarky]

.....This thread I found useful. It has pushed MAT down my list of listening priorities, and I can now catch up on some of the other stuff I want to listen to.....

[Joseph K]

Tuning in for the first time this week, listening to what sounds like a trumpet concerto, it sounds enjoyable. Perhaps 'middle of the road', but no barrier to enjoyment for me...

[mahlerfan]

.....This thread I found useful. It has pushed MAT down my list of listening priorities, and I can now catch up on some of the other stuff I want to listen to.....

Yes, I also found it useful. I was thinking about listening to MAT's music and perhaps even buying a ticket to a performance if one would be coming up in the near future now that the Covid restrictions are behind us. Like you, I'll push him down the list and focus on other stuff I wan to listen to. I find Richard's case against him compelling, especially since Richard's a composer himself (pace Serial_A) of pretty much the same age.


There doesn't seem to be many contemporary music threads on the forum to seek out new listens - any advice?