Beethoven - an antidote to Composer of the Week

[Sir Velo]

... what had you in mind when you say "all is coming unstitched"? - Something along these lines? -





[ ... for what it's worth, much as I love Beethoven, I see him very much as part of a particular European moment, the product of the cusp of the Enlightenment and Romanticism, inevitably the child of the turmoil of the French Revolution 'and all that that entails' - whereas the provincial lutheran Bach seems paradoxically, ahistorically, 'universal'.]

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Interesting point, and I don't disagree with the historiography, but isn't the "sound" of Bach also obviously of its time - in this case the Baroque?

[Serial_Apologist]

... what had you in mind when you say "all is coming unstitched"? - Something along these lines? -





[ ... for what it's worth, much as I love Beethoven, I see him very much as part of a particular European moment, the product of the cusp of the Enlightenment and Romanticism, inevitably the child of the turmoil of the French Revolution 'and all that that entails' - whereas the provincial lutheran Bach seems paradoxically, ahistorically, 'universal'.]

.

"Universal" seems to have become almost a euphemism for "apolitical" these days...

Anyway, maybe it's time now for me to go back to bed!

[eighthobstruction]

Beethoven's "message" - the music, would seem to have as much relevance to our age now as ever.

....yer killin me brud wid yer off the hook perculatin fronting the ducks givin garbeano, fall back fall back rappy dis Beethoven highside holla back all da peoplezzzz....dats the message....

[Serial_Apologist]

....yer killin me brud wid yer off the hook perculatin fronting the ducks givin garbeano, fall back fall back rappy dis Beethoven highside holla back all da peoplezzzz....dats the message....

Straight off the Peak.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I find this thread is a bit off-putting and negative and I have felt more like contributing an antidote to the thread rather than to the BBC programme.

You found the talks by Barenboim (post #1), Bernstein (#2), Schiff (#18), the links to the String Quatets (#17), and the reference to Biss' course (#20) "a bit off-putting and negative"?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I haven’t seen the Schiff, but I firmly recommend the Bis Coursera Course on the Sonatas, along with JB’s actual recordings

http://www.jonathanbiss.com/projects/cousera-beethoven-sonatas

[Master Jacques]

We need to be careful about making claims for the "universality" of this or that when what we mean is white Anglo/Europeans of a certain social class. It might be imagined that music like Beethoven could well have a wider appeal than that, but I'm reminded of Colin McPhee playing classical music of various periods and styles to Balinese musicians and getting the reaction that it all sounded more or less the same.

Don't you think you'd get the same reaction to "classical music of various periods" anywhere in the UK, without the expense of going to Bali? All that proves is that music - of any kind - is the same as most things in life, including Tom Lehrer's sewer: you get out of it what you put into it. The perceived lack of "universality" (questionable word, almost as unhelpful as "relevance" in my opinion) is in fact a matter of training the ear and mind, nothing else.

I'd also seriously question your easy line about "white Anglo/Europeans of a certain class". The great thing about going to Hallé concerts when I was a lad, was that you didn't know who you were sitting next to, be it a Duchess, a dustman or anything else on the planet (believe me, I've sat next to all sorts at Barbirolli concerts and had equally good exchanges with many of them).

I think it's a mistake to fall for this party line, of implied social "elitism", when music-making and listening in fact bring people from different stratas of life together, rather than pulling them apart. It's the commercialisation of music which has succeeded in doing that, and it's a profound lie.

Of course the whole trouble starts with Beethoven, who first set the composer as being (somehow) "above" his fellow mortals, while hypocritically pretending to be a man of the people. One forgives him, for his extraordinary work, of course - but don't forget that he's where the rot sets in, with the silly snobbery attendant on the whole, foolish and self-defeating idea of "classical music".

(Forgive my two-pennorth!)

[Serial_Apologist]

Of course the whole trouble starts with Beethoven, who first set the composer as being (somehow) "above" his fellow mortals, while hypocritically pretending to be a man of the people. One forgives him, for his extraordinary work, of course - but don't forget that he's where the rot sets in, with the silly snobbery attendant on the whole, foolish and self-defeating idea of "classical music".

(Forgive my two-pennorth!)

The point of mine which has been misunderstood (probably because I expressed it badly) is that Beethoven's life coincided with the earliest period in history when composers could no longer automatically depend on church and royalty for sponsorship, and had to go out and sell themselves in the market place. He was not of course alone, but he was a prime motivator inasmuch as his talents and the subject matter of his themes were timely - less to do with "matters eternal", more to do with historical happenings and the individual's place within them. From this time on the individual needed to measure the singularity of his vision against those of his peers to get hearings where it now mattered; thus was launched the reality behind the image of the composer in his (usually his) garret, beavering away at scores in isolation from the communities in which previous generations of composers had found their place, and whole eras common expression: no longer would one find the composer whose music was only distinguishable from peers by some quirk of fate, be it childhood prodigiousness or accident of birth as with the case of Mozart. And this being the model that pertains to the present is quite probably a prime reason Beethoven now finds himself elevated to the status accorded to him by establishment arts bodies: his emancipated subjectivity that leads some to claim his "universality" is a by-product.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... no longer would one find the composer whose music was only distinguishable from peers by some quirk of fate, be it childhood prodigiousness or accident of birth as with the case of Mozart..

I despair.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The point of mine which has been misunderstood (probably because I expressed it badly) is that Beethoven's life coincided with the earliest period in history when composers could no longer automatically depend on church and royalty for sponsorship, and had to go out and sell themselves in the market place. He was not of course alone, but he was a prime motivator inasmuch as his talents and the subject matter of his themes were timely - less to do with "matters eternal", more to do with historical happenings and the individual's place within them. From this time on the individual needed to measure the singularity of his vision against those of his peers to get hearings where it now mattered; thus was launched the reality behind the image of the composer in his (usually his) garret, beavering away at scores in isolation from the communities in which previous generations of composers had found their place, and whole eras common expression: no longer would one find the composer whose music was only distinguishable from peers by some quirk of fate, be it childhood prodigiousness or accident of birth as with the case of Mozart. And this being the model that pertains to the present is quite probably a prime reason Beethoven now finds himself elevated to the status accorded to him by establishment arts bodies: his emancipated subjectivity that leads some to claim his "universality" is a by-product.

Beethoven was reliant on patronage receiving a large grant initially paid for by three Aristocrats with ultimately the bill picked up by Archduke Rudolph. It would be difficult to think of a composer more plugged into his historic and social milieu - accepting commissions like the Glorious Moment and writing potboilers like Wellington’s Victory . His great good fortune was to be alive in a city and culture which ( largely ) recognised his gifts , grasped his stature as one of the greatest ever composers and had the wherewithal to support him. He also had a close network of middle class friends who supported him and watched out for him. His music ( like Mozart’s ) encompassed both the eternal and mundane .

[Richard Barrett]

Don't you think you'd get the same reaction to "classical music of various periods" anywhere in the UK, without the expense of going to Bali? (...)The perceived lack of "universality" (questionable word, almost as unhelpful as "relevance" in my opinion) is in fact a matter of training the ear and mind, nothing else.

Exactly what I was saying. Who knows how many other things might be just as "universal" as Beethoven if more minds and ears were trained in a more open and inclusive way?

[Bella Kemp]

We need to be careful about making claims for the "universality" of this or that when what we mean is white Anglo/Europeans of a certain social class. It might be imagined that music like Beethoven could well have a wider appeal than that, but I'm reminded of Colin McPhee playing classical music of various periods and styles to Balinese musicians and getting the reaction that it all sounded more or less the same.

I know you don't mean it this way, Richard, but there is a touch of racism in your comment. The assumption that Western classical music is really only for 'white Anglo/Europeans' has shadowed much of my life. Being a person of colour playing and teaching music for most of my adult life I have many times had to break through a certain barrier before being accepted as a competent professional. Beethoven is indeed a universal composer but people need to be taught how to hear - we shouldn't assume that just because the sound goes in our ears we can truly appreciate it. At my school I run a Music Appreciation class in which I teach my students how to listen. It is a great joy when one sees these children from many ethnic and social backgrounds truly 'get' the music.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I know you don't mean it this way, Richard, but there is a touch of racism in your comment. The assumption that Western classical music is really only for 'white Anglo/Europeans' has shadowed much of my life. Being a person of colour playing and teaching music for most of my adult life I have many times had to break through a certain barrier before being accepted as a competent professional. Beethoven is indeed a universal composer but people need to be taught how to hear - we shouldn't assume that just because the sound goes in our ears we can truly appreciate it. At my school I run a Music Appreciation class in which I teach my students how to listen. It is a great joy when one sees these children from many ethnic and social backgrounds truly 'get' the music.

Well done for flying the flag for music often wrongly judged to be “difficult” or only for an “elite.” If they were more people with your commitment I would be confident that Beethoven will still be as popular in 250 years time. I remember once reading that the biggest buyers of the DG Karajan Complete Symphonies were the Japanese - more evidence that LVB is like Shakespeare “not of an age but for all time .”

[Andy Freude]

The assumption that Western classical music is really only for 'white Anglo/Europeans'

Isn't the point that 'white Europeans' (in fact, not all of them, but some of them) have all the necessary advantages which introduce them to western classical music (though only a minority follow up sufficiently to 'get it'?). Other cultures have their own musics - I wonder if all people of Indian heritage appreciate Indian classical music? It's not that people from other cultures can't (for some inexplicable reason) appreciate western classical music as that their individual life circumstances haven't brought them sufficiently close to it to enable them to hear it in a sympathetic and encouraging environment. I don't really appreciate the classical music of other traditions, but I doubt that's due to a racial inability!

[Bryn]

Isn't the point that 'white Europeans' (in fact, not all of them, but some of them) have all the necessary advantages which introduce them to western classical music (though only a minority follow up sufficiently to 'get it'?). Other cultures have their own musics - I wonder if all people of Indian heritage appreciate Indian classical music? It's not that people from other cultures can't (for some inexplicable reason) appreciate western classical music as that their individual life circumstances haven't brought them sufficiently close to it to enable them to hear it in a sympathetic and encouraging environment. I don't really appreciate the classical music of other traditions, but I doubt that's due to a racial inability!

Re people of South Asian heritage appreciating the classical music of their region's culture, in my experience, very few do. Of the many I have worked with, only a very few have shown even the slightest identification with it. Rather similar to my experience re indigenous colleagues and European classical music.