Beethoven - an antidote to Composer of the Week

[Joseph K]

Which wasn't what I was doing. What I was trying (in my usual clumsy way!) to do was point out the ways, whys and wherefores in which Beethoven has been and is singled out of the pantheon for use as he is here.

Ok.

[Edgy 2]

I’ve learned a lot about the string quartets from these talks

https://youtu.be/GD_UL3N-SCU

https://youtu.be/QM901kQHGRI

https://youtu.be/W4uT9W9xaps

https://youtu.be/anB0dy3ofMM

https://youtu.be/V7O4AEA2kM0

https://youtu.be/NUkcxfTXLpo

[Bryn]

I’ve learned a lot about the string quartets from these talks

https://youtu.be/GD_UL3N-SCU

https://youtu.be/QM901kQHGRI

https://youtu.be/W4uT9W9xaps

https://youtu.be/anB0dy3ofMM

https://youtu.be/V7O4AEA2kM0

https://youtu.be/NUkcxfTXLpo

Then there's the Schiff lecture series on the Piano Sonatas.

[Edgy 2]

Then there's the Schiff lecture series on the Piano Sonatas.

[richardfinegold]

Then there's the Schiff lecture series on the Piano Sonatas.

I haven’t seen the Schiff, but I firmly recommend the Bis Coursera Course on the Sonatas, along with JB’s actual recordings

[richardfinegold]

There is either an awful lot one can say about Beethoven to the world of today, or not very much at all, in my opinion. Beethoven could compose the sorts of music he wanted to because it expressed the congruence of his interests with those of the rising bourgeoisie who wanted a music that would express their power and dominance. It is specific - preaching to the age in which it was composed. For the sake of life itself it's time the ruling classes were put out of their misery, but they cling on much in the analogous way "we" cling on to the manifestations of their power and any past glory that went with it - the accompanying miseries put down to human frailties we are expected to look up to the Beethovens and past heroes as iconic substitutes in a hypermediated world in order to overcome. The progressive age Beethoven was in effect celebrating was expressed in the survivalistic spirit of his music - an individualistic ethos of winners and losers, of heroes and people in need of rescue in one way or another, now etched into damaged ecosystems and dreams sustained by the power and fakery of publicity.

We no longer need the old dreams, nor do we need new Beethovens, as seems somehow implied by his being championed. If we don't need new Beethovens, why is there any need to pore over the same old same old like prize exhibits in a museum collection that has long revealed any secrets that may have any relevance to the present, like, how have they managed to survive? Who keeps digging them up for display and for what purposes? Why all this time and "taxpayers' money" spent, in effect, on propaganda of the second order?

These are questions we really should be asking.

I think that this completely misses the value of Beethoven’s Music. Every Composer existed at a certain point in History and had some specific circumstances surrounding compositions. Beethoven’s Music has retained its appeal because of the Universality of it’s message. Any one who has dreams, experienced great sadness, joy, disappointment, whatever can be moved.

[greenilex]

As a woman, I find LvB’s music immensely attractive.

But SA has a point. Heroes have a tendency to lose their togas.

[Richard Barrett]

Beethoven’s Music has retained its appeal because of the Universality of it’s message.

We need to be careful about making claims for the "universality" of this or that when what we mean is white Anglo/Europeans of a certain social class. It might be imagined that music like Beethoven could well have a wider appeal than that, but I'm reminded of Colin McPhee playing classical music of various periods and styles to Balinese musicians and getting the reaction that it all sounded more or less the same.

[oddoneout]

I can see why someone who had listened to Monday's gushing CotW would think in this way, S_A - that's precisely why we need an "antidote" to it. I'm seeking out and posting online material which demonstrate that this so-familiar Music hasn't "revealed any secrets it may have any relevance to the present". Monday's CotW certainly spent a lot of time (and some of the licence-Payers' money) on "propaganda of the second order" (actually, Ms Alsop's dog doesn't even reach the "third order") - and seemed intended to keep matters of technique and craft - easily communicated to the wider audiences - restricted to an "elite" (to use Beeb vocabulary) who have studied this Music.

If there are 125 episodes and a variety of 'guests' one would hope that there might be some which are of value. It is perhaps a bit early to judge? In some respects I suppose I am lucky in not really being that well informed in anything other than the basic facts about LvB's music, preferring to listen and feel directly as it were, so am less likely to be irritated by the approach being taken or the whole concept of concentrating on him in this way. I would hope that I may learn something or be made to think, and also that the wider R3 audience may get something of value from the enterprise.

[richardfinegold]

We need to be careful about making claims for the "universality" of this or that when what we mean is white Anglo/Europeans of a certain social class. It might be imagined that music like Beethoven could well have a wider appeal than that, but I'm reminded of Colin McPhee playing classical music of various periods and styles to Balinese musicians and getting the reaction that it all sounded more or less the same.

I have two Black Friends that I have attended Concerts with over the years who adore Beethoven (one of whom keeps managing to “borrow” CDs that never seem to be returned). I have several Hispanic friends that do the same. The average audience at a Symphony Concert is perhaps 40 percent Asian many of whom are conversing in their native tongues.. None of these individuals qualify as “white/Anglo”. However, I will concede that I have not knowingly tested the popularity of Beethoven amongst Inuit,Papuan New Guinea, or Australian Aboriginal Population, and I also cannot judge his popularity in Galaxies Far Away.
Short of that, I submit that the music of a Composer that has been dead for almost two hundred years , and is still performed and appreciated as it is, is as close to being Universal as any Music will ever be considered to be

[gurnemanz]

If there are 125 episodes and a variety of 'guests' one would hope that there might be some which are of value. It is perhaps a bit early to judge? In some respects I suppose I am lucky in not really being that well informed in anything other than the basic facts about LvB's music, preferring to listen and feel directly as it were, so am less likely to be irritated by the approach being taken or the whole concept of concentrating on him in this way. I would hope that I may learn something or be made to think, and also that the wider R3 audience may get something of value from the enterprise.

Like you, I'm looking forward to this year and will try to remain positive. In 1969/70 I spent a year in Germany as my year abroad from my German degree and experienced the full force of Beethoven's 200th anniversary celebrations in the country of his birth. As a student, I had a poster of Beethoven in Byronic stance on my wall on which I had written: “Vom Herzen, möge es wieder, zu Herzen gehen!” as B had said of his Missa Solemnis. I used to listen to it when I was depressed. 50 years on and retired, I recently took the time to work through Jan Swafford's tome, "Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph" fairly meticulously, (recommended on this Board), breaking off to listen to works as I went along.

I find this thread is a bit off-putting and negative and I have felt more like contributing an antidote to the thread rather than to the BBC programme. There are obviously countless other analyses of Beethoven's life and music available. Schama and Alsop are not "bloody idiots" and I am happy to hear what they have to say. The informal style isn't completely my cup of tea and I have not (yet) gained that many new insights but I have no sense of needing an "antidote", as if someone were trying to poison me.

[Serial_Apologist]

Like you, I'm looking forward to this year and will try to remain positive. In 1969/70 I spent a year in Germany as my year abroad from my German degree and experienced the full force of Beethoven's 200th anniversary celebrations in the country of his birth. As a student, I had a poster of Beethoven in Byronic stance on my wall on which I had written: “Vom Herzen, möge es wieder, zu Herzen gehen!” as B had said of his Missa Solemnis. I used to listen to it when I was depressed. 50 years on and retired, I recently took the time to work through Jan Swafford's tome, "Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph" fairly meticulously, (recommended on this Board), breaking off to listen to works as I went along.

I find this thread is a bit off-putting and negative and I have felt more like contributing an antidote to the thread rather than to the BBC programme. There are obviously countless other analyses of Beethoven's life and music available. Schama and Alsop are not "bloody idiots" and I am happy to hear what they have to say. The informal style isn't completely my cup of tea and I have not (yet) gained that many new insights but I have no sense of needing an "antidote", as if someone were trying to poison me.

But can't people at least consider, that devoting a WHOLE YEAR to Beethoven, at the expense of others - and as if at this very time when it is all coming unstitched, he might well appear to being portrayed as western music's redemption on behalf of the whole world - is a bit much?

[Sir Velo]

I have two Black Friends that I have attended Concerts with over the years who adore Beethoven (one of whom keeps managing to “borrow” CDs that never seem to be returned). I have several Hispanic friends that do the same. The average audience at a Symphony Concert is perhaps 40 percent Asian many of whom are conversing in their native tongues.. None of these individuals qualify as “white/Anglo”. However, I will concede that I have not knowingly tested the popularity of Beethoven amongst Inuit,Papuan New Guinea, or Australian Aboriginal Population, and I also cannot judge his popularity in Galaxies Far Away.
Short of that, I submit that the music of a Composer that has been dead for almost two hundred years , and is still performed and appreciated as it is, is as close to being Universal as any Music will ever be considered to be

Of course, the naysayers will say your experience is purely anecdotal RFG.

To my mind the person who is tired of Beethoven may well be said to be tired of life. No doubt that's a university educated white male, middle class, middle aged POV but

[vinteuil]

But can't people at least consider, that devoting a WHOLE YEAR to Beethoven, at the expense of others - and as if at this very time when it is all coming unstitched, he might well appear to being portrayed as western music's redemption on behalf of the whole world - is a bit much?

... what had you in mind when you say "all is coming unstitched"? - Something along these lines? -

I even saw a commentator yesterday include volcanic eruptions and earthquakes among the consequences of humankind's mismanagement of earth's life systems!

[ ... for what it's worth, much as I love Beethoven, I see him very much as part of a particular European moment, the product of the cusp of the Enlightenment and Romanticism, inevitably the child of the turmoil of the French Revolution 'and all that that entails' - whereas the provincial lutheran Bach seems paradoxically, ahistorically, 'universal'.]

.

[Sir Velo]

There is either an awful lot one can say about Beethoven to the world of today, or not very much at all, in my opinion. Beethoven could compose the sorts of music he wanted to because it expressed the congruence of his interests with those of the rising bourgeoisie who wanted a music that would express their power and dominance. It is specific - preaching to the age in which it was composed. For the sake of life itself it's time the ruling classes were put out of their misery, but they cling on much in the analogous way "we" cling on to the manifestations of their power and any past glory that went with it - the accompanying miseries put down to human frailties we are expected to look up to the Beethovens and past heroes as iconic substitutes in a hypermediated world in order to overcome. The progressive age Beethoven was in effect celebrating was expressed in the survivalistic spirit of his music - an individualistic ethos of winners and losers, of heroes and people in need of rescue in one way or another, now etched into damaged ecosystems and dreams sustained by the power and fakery of publicity.

We no longer need the old dreams, nor do we need new Beethovens, as seems somehow implied by his being championed. If we don't need new Beethovens, why is there any need to pore over the same old same old like prize exhibits in a museum collection that has long revealed any secrets that may have any relevance to the present, like, how have they managed to survive? Who keeps digging them up for display and for what purposes? Why all this time and "taxpayers' money" spent, in effect, on propaganda of the second order?

Beethoven's "message" - the music, would seem to have as much relevance to our age now as ever.