Guillaume Dufay (1397-1474): 26-30 August

[doversoul1]

Monday

St. Anthony of Padua Mass – Kyrie: The Binchois Consort , Andrew Kirkman, conductor
Ce jour de l’an: Bernhard Landauer, counter –tenor, Unicorn Ensemble, Michael Posch, director
St. Anthony of Padua Mass – Gloria: The Binchois Consort
Quel fronte signorillo: C’est bien raison de devoir essaucier, La Reverdie
Ave Regina caelorum: The Orlando Consort
Missa ave regina caelorum – Sanctus, Agnus Dei: Cantica Symphonia: Giuseppe Maletto, director

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007xxh

[doversoul1]

Not surprisingly, it has been excellent so far (to me).

[Serial_Apologist]

Not surprisingly, it has been excellent so far (to me).

And to me! - my knowledge of the period covered by Dufay (first half of the 15th century) is pretty scant, stopping at Machaut and resuming with Josquin, and up to now largely dependent on music influenced and inspired by Dufay and others of the period by modernists, particularly Peter Maxwell Davies.

[Serial_Apologist]

The ongoing discussions with William Lyons are providing the kind of in-depth commentary on the make up of the music and its relationship to the historical period that would be admirable, were it to be applied to COTW in general.

[doversoul1]

William Lyons’s comments and explanations have been very interesting and enlightening. He mentioned that Dufay was one of the first composers who showed the awareness that he was not simply composing music to fit the purpose but actually creating something from inside himself.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

William Lyons’s comments and explanations have been very interesting and enlightening. He mentioned that Dufay was one of the first composers who showed the awareness that he was not simply composing music to fit the purpose but actually creating something from inside himself.

Hmmm. I intend to catch up on the programmes (pleasantly active this week) so just responding to this reported comment - given that Dufay is one of the earliest composers whose work we know, then he's "one of the first composers who" did anything! (And, anyway, didn't Machaut, Perotin, Leonin, Hildegard [to name just four] also "create something from within themselves"?) Seems a bit of an empty comment at first glance, dovers.

[Serial_Apologist]

William Lyons’s comments and explanations have been very interesting and enlightening. He mentioned that Dufay was one of the first composers who showed the awareness that he was not simply composing music to fit the purpose but actually creating something from inside himself.

Maybe I misheard, but the impression I gleaned from the closing comments from Mr Lyons was that Dufay was one of the last in that lineage, and one of the first to take account of institutions such as the church. It did disappoint me when he cited Steve Reich and Arvo Part as two present-day composers who have followed Dufay's example in being able to combine metrical and rhythmic complexity with good tunes: I can't conjure a single "tune" to mind by either composer; there are so many more interesting figures to draw attention to!

A wonderful week of listening nevertheless, for which many thanks dovers: I found myself completely unable to take my ears off any of the music throughout!

[DracoM]

A wonderful week of listening nevertheless >>

[Serial_Apologist]

Hmmm. I intend to catch up on the programmes (pleasantly active this week) so just responding to this reported comment - given that Dufay is one of the earliest composers whose work we know, then he's "one of the first composers who" did anything! (And, anyway, didn't Machaut, Perotin, Leonin, Hildegard [to name just four] also "create something from within themselves"?) Seems a bit of an empty comment at first glance, dovers.

The way I understood the comment was that composers of that age, like the artists in general whose art was pretty much inseparable from craftsmanship, were unconcerned in the way composers from roughly Beethoven's time onwards have been with having to think in terms of a marketplace when deciding what kind of music they are to compose. As a consequence of not having to think in debased terms of acceptability, and instead looking to "higher" ideals, they were able to more fully engage with the act of creating music. It was this aspect of the period that the late 19th century Arts & Crafts movement, generalised in their over-romanticised view of it, and which survives (just about!) in today's artistic and musical co-operatives.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The way I understood the comment was that composers of that age, like the artists in general whose art was pretty much inseparable from craftsmanship, were unconcerned in the way composers from roughly Beethoven's time onwards have been with having to think in terms of a marketplace when deciding what kind of music they are to compose. As a consequence of not having to think in debased terms of acceptability, and instead looking to "higher" ideals, they were able to more fully engage with the act of creating music. It was this aspect of the period that the late 19th century Arts & Crafts movement, generalised in their over-romanticised view of it, and which survives (just about!) in today's artistic and musical co-operatives.

I don't think I understand - was William Lyons just saying that Dufay was the first "commercial" composer, then? "[N]ot simply composing music to fit the purpose but actually creating something from inside himself" seems a very convoluted - not to say misleading - way of saying this. (I'm not sure what you mean by Dufay being "one of the first to take account of institutions such as the church" in your #7, either - that had been going on at Notre Dame [to name the most obvious example] for 300 years by the time Dufay started working, hadn't it?)

Sorry, I should just listen to the programmes ...

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't think I understand - was William Lyons just saying that Dufay was the first "commercial" composer, then? "[N]ot simply composing music to fit the purpose but actually creating something from inside himself" seems a very convoluted - not to say misleading - way of saying this. (I'm not sure what you mean by Dufay being "one of the first to take account of institutions such as the church" in your #7, either - that had been going on at Notre Dame [to name the most obvious example] for 300 years by the time Dufay started working, hadn't it?)

Sorry, I should just listen to the programmes ...

That was badly put on my part. What I was trying to say was that the church or monastery, acting as main "commissioner" for large scale works, allowed the Mediaeval composer, or maker of religious artifacts, to think in terms of what he or she would have felt to be "eternal values" rather than relating to era-specific music trends deemed acceptable for secular "ruling orders" of the time or, later, market-orientated audiences. Lyons's comments, implying (as I heard them) that Dufay was one of the first "western" composers to recognise and differentiate between different music for different purposes and sponsors, come near the end of today's programme, ferney.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ah, thanks, S_A - I'm looking forward to hearing the programmes.

[doversoul1]

I understood the comment by William Lyons to mean as Dufay was one of the first or earliest composers who, not exactly declared but expressed that composing music was not entirely for the glory of God or to be used in a wedding but something 'personal'. Lyons fleetingly referred to the composers in the Romantic era. Anyway, do listen to the programme and correct me by all means.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I don't think I understand - was William Lyons just saying that Dufay was the first "commercial" composer, then? "[N]ot simply composing music to fit the purpose but actually creating something from inside himself" seems a very convoluted - not to say misleading - way of saying this. (I'm not sure what you mean by Dufay being "one of the first to take account of institutions such as the church" in your #7, either - that had been going on at Notre Dame [to name the most obvious example] for 300 years by the time Dufay started working, hadn't it?)

Sorry, I should just listen to the programmes ...

I think that Lyons' point was that before Dufay anyone composing music did so as part of another 'job', particularly as a performing musician or choir trainer, possibly also as priest. With Dufay there is the beginning of 'composer' as being a job in itself, meriting a name and recognition as such, even if only part-time with the other duties.

Not sure about this but perhaps this had to do with the wider dissemination of D's works under his name, as if the name on the work mattered more and more in itself. ("Must be good if it's by Dufay"??)

Not very clear but the best I can do!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks, LMP - I shall listen to the programmes, honest: but just based on the quotation dovers cited, the explanations offered so far by everyone - illuminating and stimulating though they have been in themselves - don't seem to "fit" the "creating something from inside himself" comment.