Jean-Philippe Rameau (1683-1764)

[jayne lee wilson]

Wonderful anthology of for me (and many others...) by far the best recordings of the Rameau Suites from the Ramellian (or Ramovian, or roll your own...) doyen....Franz Bruggen. Who else?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jean-Philippe-Rameau-Orchestra-18th-Century/dp/B07FVFQF2L/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1547393580&sr=1-1&keywords=rameau+glossa

I bought all of these either as they came out, or rounded them up 2ndhand later...I couldn't stop playing them, I worshipped them..... they could keep anyone happy for many a week....

(can't see a download/stream anywhere yet....)

[Richard Barrett]

I can only echo what Micky and Vinteuil have to say about the 27 CD box. Rameau's music is so sensitive to sonic texture that playing it on "modern" instruments in a style far distant from the very specific French Baroque style is really not going to the music due justice, which is no doubt why Rameau's music became much more popular once taken up by HIPPsters, among whom Nikolaus Harnoncourt as so often showed the way with his Castor et Pollux (1972!) to which I still often listen even if Christie's more recent recording improves on it in many ways. As for the DVDs, I've seen the Boréades, Indes Galantes and Paladins from that collection and they're all absolutely marvellous in their different ways. And yes, all those compilations from Frans Brüggen are marvellous but in the end I prefer the dance movements in their context because the flow in and out of the drama in such an elegant way.

The aforementioned feature of timbral sensitivity, as well as the way the instrumental dances seem to have dance movements woven into them in a way very little dance music has, and the way voices and instruments intertwine in the vocal music, make Rameau's work for me the most sensuous music of its time (and indeed not just then).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elaic5aSAPU

(that's an aria from Les Indes galantes)

[jayne lee wilson]

Discussion point..... why didn't Bruggen ever record a Rameau Opera complete...?

(I do, BTW, have many Christie/Minkowski Rameau Operas on my shelves, but the ears no longer allow prolonged attention to classical vocal generally so - thank god for those Bruggen suites).

Remember too that without those Bruggen recordings (dating back to the 1980s) I and many others would scarcely have become aware of Rameau at all, and they would be a wonderful entry point for listeners today. The Operas can be glorious, yes - but fairly lengthy and demanding of ears, time and attention....

[Richard Barrett]

Discussion point..... why didn't Bruggen ever record a Rameau Opera complete...?

I'm not sure he ever recorded any operas complete though, I don't think it was a particular interest of his. He had quite a light touch as a conductor, which relied heavily on his being able to surround himself with people who knew what kind of thing he wanted without him having to direct them much, and that kind of approach probably doesn't work so well with opera. Plus he was interested in a relatively small repertoire, I thought it was a shame that he recorded many things for Glossa that he'd already recorded for Philips, when in at least some cases the newer recordings aren't as good.

[doversoul1]

This looks an excellent starter.
Early Music Later tonight.
[…] Hippolyte et Aricie, and end with his somewhat risky wedding gift to the Dauphin Louis, Platee, via his greatest work, the tragedy Castor et Pollux.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002063

[jayne lee wilson]

This looks an excellent starter.
Early Music Later tonight.
[…] Hippolyte et Aricie, and end with his somewhat risky wedding gift to the Dauphin Louis, Platee, via his greatest work, the tragedy Castor et Pollux.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002063

Wow - thanks... I'll switch it on directly, while preparing the late meal.....

[HighlandDougie]

Wonderful anthology of for me (and many others...) by far the best recordings of the Rameau Suites from the Ramellian (or Ramovian, or roll your own...) doyen....Franz Bruggen. Who else?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jean-Philippe-Rameau-Orchestra-18th-Century/dp/B07FVFQF2L/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1547393580&sr=1-1&keywords=rameau+glossa

I bought all of these either as they came out, or rounded them up 2ndhand later...I couldn't stop playing them, I worshipped them..... they could keep anyone happy for many a week....

(can't see a download/stream anywhere yet....)

Having mislaid (or had burgled) some of the individual discs years ago, this Glossa box has been one of life’s great pleasures since buying it a couple of months ago. I know that Richard B. is right to say that the music really ought to be heard in the context of the full opera for which it was written but, given the many other demands on one’s time, finding three hours or so to sit down to listen to or watch a Rameau opera can only be an occasional pleasure. And the music, even as bleeding chunks, is so infectiously enjoyable that I don’t feel too guilty at listening to it à la Classic FM (or, sadly, Radio 3 these days).

Of the two Rameau concoctions I have on disc, that by Marc Minkowski drew some withering comments when released at his temerity in taking bleeding chunks and sticking them together but it remains a great delight. That by Theodore Currentzis, about which I remember Jayne enthusing, is almost as enjoyable.

[MickyD]

Wonderful anthology of for me (and many others...) by far the best recordings of the Rameau Suites from the Ramellian (or Ramovian, or roll your own...) doyen....Franz Bruggen. Who else?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jean-Philippe-Rameau-Orchestra-18th-Century/dp/B07FVFQF2L/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1547393580&sr=1-1&keywords=rameau+glossa

I bought all of these either as they came out, or rounded them up 2ndhand later...I couldn't stop playing them, I worshipped them..... they could keep anyone happy for many a week....

(can't see a download/stream anywhere yet....)

The correct term is 'Ramellian', I believe!

Yes, the Bruggen discs are indeed useful if you are pushed for time - he has a wonderfully large orchestra by the sound of it, though in Rameau I find him a wee bit stiff at times compared to other conductors. The suite of dances from "Acante et Céphise" is particularly welcome as we still need a complete recording of that - I heard it all in a R3 concert from St John's Smith Square directed by Pinnock way back in the 80s and it is full of good things.

But there are some other good compilations of dances - not least Capella Savaria's two discs for Naxos featuring the hitherto unknown 'Naissance d'Osiris' and 'Daphnis et Eglé'. Leonhardt also did a selection from 'Les Paladins' with the Orchestra of the Age of Englightenment for Philips.

Richard Barrett makes a good point about Harnoncourt showing the way with his 'Castor and Pollux' from 1972 - I too often listen to it. It sounds a bit odd compared to how Rameau is done these days, but it is a fascinating bridge in recording history.

I think I'll have to get those DVDs.

Still on the instrumental suites subject, this very good two CD set from Savall came out not so long ago but may have been overlooked. It is, like so many of his Alia Vox productions, all that one could wish for.

[doversoul1]

This looks an excellent starter.
Early Music Later tonight.
[…] Hippolyte et Aricie, and end with his somewhat risky wedding gift to the Dauphin Louis, Platee, via his greatest work, the tragedy Castor et Pollux.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002063

It may be because of the radio (an old Sony transistor) but I was rather disappointed. It sounded like the USSR military band in full force. I’ll listen again but as has been said, dance suites are nice when I want a nice easy listening (which I do very often). And I think this live concert is the same programme as MickyD’s CD

Jean-Philippe Rameau: La Orquesta de Luis XV - Concierto de Jordi Saval

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1ItcF7PWRM

One of my Rameau introductions was Trevor Pinnock’s Les Cyclopes

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7935062--rameau-les-cyclopes

I may not choose Pinnock now but it still sounds good.

[jayne lee wilson]

I bought that Savall 2-SACD Rameau Suites set on release (2011)....enjoyable yes, but I find it a bit overdone sometimes - heavy-footed and rather closely recorded, compared to the spacious purity of sound on the Bruggen/Philips discs which (especially on the Decca Originals Indes Galantes remaster) has a particular tonal quality which I can only describe as "reaching into the spiritual" - which is for me what so distinguishes Bruggen's Rameau from most others. The Netherlands halls' acoustics also matched the music very well. (Which they didn't always in later Haydn or Beethoven tapings from the same artists).

In a piece like Air pour les amants et les amantes, to my ears he carries more lift and light, more schwung through the dances too. The individual Glossa sets seemed to me, to be even more exceptional. They take me.. somewhere else...
But then, I almost always feel a special connection to anything Bruggen creates.

Try comparing Bruggen/Savall in other Indes Galantes movements - you may hear what I mean. That lovely airiness to the flutes...so distinctive of the O18thC/Bruggen sound world.

The Savall is physically exciting and immediate, but seems to remain in the secular, quotidian...

I should have followed up D2k2's mention of the Rameau/Currentzis The Sound of Light - as HD implies, it was my 2014 Record of the Year and is a stunning one-off, a far-flung outlier - as extreme, individual and intense a take on Rameau's sci-fi universe as you could ever imagine!
May the force be with you...

[Richard Barrett]

Actually the only bite-size Rameau compilation I listen to regularly is Leonhardt and the OAE playing bits of Les paladins. It's a great shame Leonhardt didn't record this one complete (his complete recording of Zaïs is well worth seeking out). I've just been listening to the Savall compilation - despite my general feelings about such things I found the playing very beautiful, thinking that there is a conductor and ensemble who really gets inside the French baroque style and surely ought to be performing complete works by Rameau. There's a lot of lute-plucking to be heard though - Nigel North writes that there's "less evidence" of the use of this instrument in Rameau's time than earlier - and Savall opts not to use clarinets in the music from Les Boréades which is a shame, in view of the colour they add in Gardiner's complete recording, although the horns sound superb which makes up for that to some degree. Nevertheless I like it a lot.

[doversoul1]

I bought that Savall 2-SACD Rameau Suites set on release (2011)....enjoyable yes, but I find it a bit overdone sometimes - heavy-footed and rather closely recorded, compared to the spacious purity of sound on the Bruggen/Philips discs which (especially on the Decca Originals Indes Galantes remaster) has a particular tonal quality which I can only describe as "reaching into the spiritual" - which is for me what so distinguishes Bruggen's Rameau from most others. The Netherlands halls' acoustics also matched the music very well. (Which they didn't always in later Haydn or Beethoven tapings from the same artists).

In a piece like Air pour les amants et les amantes, to my ears he carries more lift and light, more schwung through the dances too. The individual Glossa sets seemed to me, to be even more exceptional. They take me.. somewhere else...
But then, I almost always feel a special connection to anything Bruggen creates.

Try comparing Bruggen/Savall in other Indes Galantes movements - you may hear what I mean. That lovely airiness to the flutes...so distinctive of the O18thC/Bruggen sound world.

The Savall is physically exciting and immediate, but seems to remain in the secular, quotidian...

I should have followed up D2k2's mention of the Rameau/Currentzis The Sound of Light - as HD implies, it was my 2014 Record of the Year and is a stunning one-off, a far-flung outlier - as extreme, individual and intense a take on Rameau's sci-fi universe as you could ever imagine!
May the force be with you...

Are those dance suites ever meant to be other than secular entertainment? And can music be exciting and quotidian at the same time? I suppose that depends on what you get/one gets excited about.

Apart from the actual church/sacred music, I wonder how much Baroque composers concerned themselves with their secular works being spiritual. But again, I suppose that depends on what one means by spiritual.

[vinteuil]

Are those dance suites ever meant to be other than secular entertainment? And can music be exciting and quotidian at the same time? I suppose that depends on what you get/one gets excited about.

Apart from the actual church/sacred music, I wonder how much Baroque composers concerned themselves with their secular works being spiritual. But again, I suppose that depends on what one means by spiritual.

.

[MickyD]

Actually the only bite-size Rameau compilation I listen to regularly is Leonhardt and the OAE playing bits of Les paladins. It's a great shame Leonhardt didn't record this one complete (his complete recording of Zaïs is well worth seeking out). I've just been listening to the Savall compilation - despite my general feelings about such things I found the playing very beautiful, thinking that there is a conductor and ensemble who really gets inside the French baroque style and surely ought to be performing complete works by Rameau. There's a lot of lute-plucking to be heard though - Nigel North writes that there's "less evidence" of the use of this instrument in Rameau's time than earlier - and Savall opts not to use clarinets in the music from Les Boréades which is a shame, in view of the colour they add in Gardiner's complete recording, although the horns sound superb which makes up for that to some degree. Nevertheless I like it a lot.

I quite agree, Richard. I am lucky enough to have grabbed hold of the Leonhardt "Zais" when it first appeared in the early 80s. It cost me a fortune - a fellow Ramellian brought me a copy from Paris to London. I understand it is now as rare as hen's teeth. There has of course since been a newer version from Rousset, but I wonder how that compares...I haven't heard it yet.

Yes, the Gardiner recording of "Les Boréades" still remains supreme for me, not just in its unique completeness, but I think he gets the tempi and spirit just right. I have yet to hear the exquisite "Entrée " done better.

I think the most enchanting work of all for me is "Les Fêtes d'Hébé", and how lucky we are that Christie made such a good job of recording the entire piece.

[BBMmk2]

Having mislaid (or had burgled) some of the individual discs years ago, this Glossa box has been one of life’s great pleasures since buying it a couple of months ago. I know that Richard B. is right to say that the music really ought to be heard in the context of the full opera for which it was written but, given the many other demands on one’s time, finding three hours or so to sit down to listen to or watch a Rameau opera can only be an occasional pleasure. And the music, even as bleeding chunks, is so infectiously enjoyable that I don’t feel too guilty at listening to it à la Classic FM (or, sadly, Radio 3 these days).

Of the two Rameau concoctions I have on disc, that by Marc Minkowski drew some withering comments when released at his temerity in taking bleeding chunks and sticking them together but it remains a great delight. That by Theodore Currentzis, about which I remember Jayne enthusing, is almost as enjoyable.

It be worth getting just for Les Boreades! My favourite of all!