Copland

[Serial_Apologist]

I had thought that we had moved beyond bashing 20 th Century Composers that deliberately tried to make their music accessible, but some attitudes die hard

Elliot Carter had some things to say about that - namely that the effort really didn't succeed in raising Copland's profile to the popularity levels attained by the "regular classics" - or his own, writing in a deliberately popular vein, at that time.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think I like most of Copland's output -even Hoe Down but preferably as part of the complete Rodeo and Billy the Kid(LSO/Copland)

I agree - and had that very CBS LP (and subsequently the CD transfer). Just the "Dance Episodes" from Rodeo, though? With the sepia "Wanted" poster of Billy on the cover?

the Shoot Out in Billy still sounds fun!

- certainly did on today's programme (NYPO/Bernstein).

[richardfinegold]

Elliot Carter had some things to say about that - namely that the effort really didn't succeed in raising Copland's profile to the popularity levels attained by the "regular classics" - or his own, writing in a deliberately popular vein, at that time.

Perhaps it’s my fault, but I am missing the point here. Can you elaborate?
I am also not willing to cede any argument to Mr. Carter, whose music is usually not greeted with any enthusiasm by concert goers. It wouldn’t surprise me if he felt some jealousy

[BBMmk2]

Let's hope it holds this time. It has switched back to "Copeland" twice in recent hours.

Not just me then!

[rauschwerk]

And of course we do have the more "radical" works of the 1960s mentioned in Radio Times to look forward to on Friday, which may help change my views!

Not so sure about that! Yes, we have Connotations, but the Piano Concerto is from the 1920s and the other Friday pieces are hardly radical. The Beeb continues to be afraid of scaring us away by playing (say) the 1957 Piano Fantasy, one of Copland's most challenging post-war works. And I think we might have had the Symphonic Ode instead of the striking but rather immature Organ Symphony.

I thinks it's worth reading the composer's essay on the Fantasy https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...=1&oref=slogin

[Serial_Apologist]

Perhaps it’s my fault, but I am missing the point here. Can you elaborate?
I am also not willing to cede any argument to Mr. Carter, whose music is usually not greeted with any enthusiasm by concert goers. It wouldn’t surprise me if he felt some jealousy

I could find the exact Carter quote (from a BBC programme I have on cassette: it would take some time to transfer!) but Carter was, I remember, speaking in reference to the alleged phenomenon of "idiomatic consensus", of the kind that one could easily attribute to era, but which was, in truth, mythological from the Romantic era onwards, notwithstanding claims as to the existence of a "serial hegemony" dominating avant-garde music in the 1950s. There were false, he claimed. He added that he himself had been one among many who had deliberately tried to bring about an "aesthetic consensus" in the 1930s and '40s, centreing on a simplified populist-orientated Neo Classicism that it was hoped would raise modern music's profile and expand its audience, internationally. Poulenc was one of the other personalities he mentioned, Copland another. But the truth was as it had long been, namely that concert audiences proved less interested in these works or others such as the "Pines of Rome" than they were in ever-repeated stagings of Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Dvorak & co. In consequence he (Carter) had drawn the deduction that the only creative answer was to remain steadfast to one's intuitions and try to infuse ones music with the complexity that reflected that of the real world and society around oneself. This he had then consistently sought to do, starting with the Second String Quartet.

I remember feeling reassured by this at the time, and that, at least partly for this reason, my efforts to get to grips with the great moderns had proved inwardly rewarding.

I suppose I should add that there is nothing necessarily wrong with a serious composer or musician in any field attempting to popularise his or her music; the justification would depend on the motive, namely whether it was merely to make money and stick two fingers up at the idea of expand creative possibilities, to bring in people marginalised by poverty, social or ethnic disadvantagement, or make ones music a part of bringing about a better world. Copland was undoubtedly committed to the latter idea - whether or not he went about it with his eyes wide shut about the nature and character of American capitalism is another subject!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Did I hear correctly Donald McLeod saying that Simple Gifts was the only "folk melody" used in Appalachian Spring?

[Mal]

I think I like most of Copland's output -even Hoe Down but preferably as part of the complete Rodeo and Billy the Kid(LSO/Copland) ...

I thought the hoe down aired sounded spot on, and may be a good bargain if you already (like me) have Billy the Kid:

Copland: Rodeo (Four dance Episodes) / The Red Pony (Suite)/ Prairie Journal / Letter from Home Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra. JoAnn Falletta. Naxos

Is "The Red Pony" related to the Steinbeck novel? It's been sitting on my shelves demanding to be read.

Lot of gaps in my Copland collection, Bernstein NYPO "Quiet City" sounded like another must!

[cloughie]

I thought the hoe down aired sounded spot on, and may be a good bargain if you already (like me) have Billy the Kid:

Copland: Rodeo (Four dance Episodes) / The Red Pony (Suite)/ Prairie Journal / Letter from Home Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra. JoAnn Falletta. Naxos

Is "The Red Pony" related to the Steinbeck novel? It's been sitting on my shelves demanding to be read.

Lot of gaps in my Copland collection, Bernstein NYPO "Quiet City" sounded like another must!

Copland wrote the music for the 1949 film of Steinbeck's novel!

[Suffolkcoastal]

Generally much of the content of the programmes is a little disappointing. What the Piano Concerto is doing included in a programme on Copland's music of the 1960s God only knows! There is a tendency to shy away from most of the Piano & Chamber music, works such as the Piano Sonata & Fantasy, Night Thoughts, Vitebsk, the Violin Sonata, Piano Quartet & especially the Nonet, one of my favourite Copland scores. Copland is fortunate in that almost his entire output has been recorded and is available in recordings/downloads, so there is the opportunity to assess his output as a whole.
With the three famous Ballets I now prefer to listen to them complete, both Billy the Kid & Applachian Spring gain greatly from this. There is also a film of Martha Graham dancing in the latter available on Youtube. There is a tendency to forget his other ballet scores notably Dance Panels as well as Grohg & Hear Ye, Hear Ye.

[Lat-Literal]

I could find the exact Carter quote (from a BBC programme I have on cassette: it would take some time to transfer!) but Carter was, I remember, speaking in reference to the alleged phenomenon of "idiomatic consensus", of the kind that one could easily attribute to era, but which was, in truth, mythological from the Romantic era onwards, notwithstanding claims as to the existence of a "serial hegemony" dominating avant-garde music in the 1950s. There were false, he claimed. He added that he himself had been one among many who had deliberately tried to bring about an "aesthetic consensus" in the 1930s and '40s, centreing on a simplified populist-orientated Neo Classicism that it was hoped would raise modern music's profile and expand its audience, internationally. Poulenc was one of the other personalities he mentioned, Copland another. But the truth was as it had long been, namely that concert audiences proved less interested in these works or others such as the "Pines of Rome" than they were in ever-repeated stagings of Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Dvorak & co. In consequence he (Carter) had drawn the deduction that the only creative answer was to remain steadfast to one's intuitions and try to infuse ones music with the complexity that reflected that of the real world and society around oneself. This he had then consistently sought to do, starting with the Second String Quartet.

I remember feeling reassured by this at the time, and that, at least partly for this reason, my efforts to get to grips with the great moderns had proved inwardly rewarding.

I suppose I should add that there is nothing necessarily wrong with a serious composer or musician in any field attempting to popularise his or her music; the justification would depend on the motive, namely whether it was merely to make money and stick two fingers up at the idea of expand creative possibilities, to bring in people marginalised by poverty, social or ethnic disadvantagement, or make ones music a part of bringing about a better world. Copland was undoubtedly committed to the latter idea - whether or not he went about it with his eyes wide shut about the nature and character of American capitalism is another subject!

Notwithstanding Barber, who would have been the American composer had it not been Copland?

Sessions or Gershwin?

[Stanfordian]

Notwithstanding Barber, who would have been the American composer had it not been Copland?

Sessions or Gershwin?

It has to be Bernstein! Gershwin is distinctly American too.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Notwithstanding Barber, who would have been the American composer had it not been Copland?
Sessions or Gershwin?

?????

My options would be Ives, Carter, Babbitt, Cage, Feldman, Varese, Ellington, Sessions, Wolff (and, I suppose, Reich, Zappa and Gershwin).

[Serial_Apologist]

?????

My options would be Ives, Carter, Babbitt, Cage, Feldman, Varese, Ellington, Sessions, Wolff (and, I suppose, Reich, Zappa and Gershwin).

One could add Virgil Thompson, he being very close in many ways to Copland's aesthetic; but to cop out on this question of "Americanness", with the possible exception of Charles Ives and the experimentalists, I would argue that many of the "mainstream" 20th century American composers were really European composers, some with added tinges of Americana. The "real" art music of the USA has been jazz.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One could add Virgil Thompson, he being very close in many ways to Copland's aesthetic; but to cop out on this question of "Americanness", with the possible exception of Charles Ives and the experimentalists, I would argue that many of the "mainstream" 20th century American composers were really European composers, some with added tinges of Americana. The "real" art music of the USA has been jazz.

Absolutely - if we measure the success of a Composer by how much s/he changed the world's ideas about what Music can do, and what it can be (in the way that Monteverdi, or Beethoven, or Wagner changed everything) then Jazz is it - as is Cage.