Claude Debussy (1862-1918) - 19-23 March

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  • Serial_Apologist
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 38089

    Claude Debussy (1862-1918) - 19-23 March

    My apologies for omitting to start a thread on my favourite composer of all time, the centenary of whose birth falls this weekend, with Radio 3 commemorating this coming Friday and Saturday.

    Introducer of the notion that "the unexpected is ever upon us" if we open our senses, expander of "the permissible in the empire of sound": what more is there to say of Debussy as the Father of Modern Music, in Boulez's terms, than that he more than anyone furnished the sound and content of so much of what we think of being 20th century music: from composers across the international range to jazz, to electronic music's preoccupation with sound, and (lastly?) as the arpeggiating forerunner of Minimalism. A complex, contradictory figure, Debussy was the "bourgeois" composer of music that epitomises an ideal notion of life lived in the Now, anticipating a time still to come when time management can allow the omnipresent scarcity of opportunity imperative to be ahead to be in control to die, yet who chose dowdy circumstances to "co-inhabit" his unfortunate if not hapless partners. The pursuit of the sensory expressed in the late 19th century arts was as much the tail-end of Romanticism's priviledgeing of the subjective as its questioning of religious truths with resort, according to inclination, to their forsaken underbelly. One likes to hope those women, voiceless to history, by-passed that part of his personality to love him for his music; to what if any extent can he be exonerated by what he gave us for what he wilfully and selfishly took from them? Is man's pursuit of the sensuous pre-programmed to use women to its end? Or is this the flip side of religion's obsession with the genital: a guilt-tripped inversed justification that men still rattle out for the consequences on women it purports to deplore? Debussy's treatment of women was the blemish glaringly at odds with what comes across as the feminine in-touchness of his music. In this he also anticipated the myth-making perpetrated by the hippie movement which helped generate the rebirth of feminism that immediately followed. This version of masculinity tacitly informs this week's COTW subject, though that probably won't be mentioned, and while I still love Debussy's music, I don't anticipate it being the challenge of a broader discussion, here or anywhere.
  • cloughie
    Full Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 22259

    #2
    Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
    My apologies for omitting to start a thread on my favourite composer of all time, the centenary of whose birth falls this weekend, with Radio 3 commemorating this coming Friday and Saturday.

    Introducer of the notion that "the unexpected is ever upon us" if we open our senses, expander of "the permissible in the empire of sound": what more is there to say of Debussy as the Father of Modern Music, in Boulez's terms, than that he more than anyone furnished the sound and content of so much of what we think of being 20th century music: from composers across the international range to jazz, to electronic music's preoccupation with sound, and (lastly?) as the arpeggiating forerunner of Minimalism. A complex, contradictory figure, Debussy was the "bourgeois" composer of music that epitomises an ideal notion of life lived in the Now, anticipating a time still to come when time management can allow the omnipresent scarcity of opportunity imperative to be ahead to be in control to die, yet who chose dowdy circumstances to "co-inhabit" his unfortunate if not hapless partners. The pursuit of the sensory expressed in the late 19th century arts was as much the tail-end of Romanticism's priviledgeing of the subjective as its questioning of religious truths with resort, according to inclination, to their forsaken underbelly. One likes to hope those women, voiceless to history, by-passed that part of his personality to love him for his music; to what if any extent can he be exonerated by what he gave us for what he wilfully and selfishly took from them? Is man's pursuit of the sensuous pre-programmed to use women to its end? Or is this the flip side of religion's obsession with the genital: a guilt-tripped inversed justification that men still rattle out for the consequences on women it purports to deplore? Debussy's treatment of women was the blemish glaringly at odds with what comes across as the feminine in-touchness of his music. In this he also anticipated the myth-making perpetrated by the hippie movement which helped generate the rebirth of feminism that immediately followed. This version of masculinity tacitly informs this week's COTW subject, though that probably won't be mentioned, and while I still love Debussy's music, I don't anticipate it being the challenge of a broader discussion, here or anywhere.
    Very interesting, I have to say he is up near the top of my list. Aside from Pelleas which I do not dislike but have not totally embraced yet after all these years I cannot think of any Debussy piece that I do not like and I have not tired of hearing however many times I hear them. La Mer continues to be exquisite and I cannot think of a bad recording of it, and L'apres-midi always provides the ideal prologue to it! Along with Ravel the solo piano works for me shine above most other composers.

    Comment

    • BBMmk2
      Late Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 20908

      #3
      Originally posted by cloughie View Post
      Very interesting, I have to say he is up near the top of my list. Aside from Pelleas which I do not dislike but have not totally embraced yet after all these years I cannot think of any Debussy piece that I do not like and I have not tired of hearing however many times I hear them. La Mer continues to be exquisite and I cannot think of a bad recording of it, and L'apres-midi always provides the ideal prologue to it! Along with Ravel the solo piano works for me shine above most other composers.
      Quite agree Cloughie. I do hope though we won't be over burdened with his glorious music?
      Don’t cry for me
      I go where music was born

      J S Bach 1685-1750

      Comment

      • richardfinegold
        Full Member
        • Sep 2012
        • 7862

        #4
        Originally posted by cloughie View Post
        Very interesting, I have to say he is up near the top of my list. Aside from Pelleas which I do not dislike but have not totally embraced yet after all these years I cannot think of any Debussy piece that I do not like and I have not tired of hearing however many times I hear them. La Mer continues to be exquisite and I cannot think of a bad recording of it, and L'apres-midi always provides the ideal prologue to it! Along with Ravel the solo piano works for me shine above most other composers.
        Karajan’s “Das Mer” would be nomination for stinker. I ‘m not a Karajan hater by any means but that is a misfire.

        I am not sure that I follow Serial Apologist line of thinking in the OP. Is the argument that: 1) Debussy Music is feminine in nature, and 2) Debussy exploited women in his private relations, and therefore :? I am not sure that I agree with any of that, or am I misunderstanding?

        Comment

        • cloughie
          Full Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 22259

          #5
          Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
          Karajan’s “Das Mer” would be nomination for stinker. I ‘m not a Karajan hater by any means but that is a misfire.

          I am not sure that I follow Serial Apologist line of thinking in the OP. Is the argument that: 1) Debussy Music is feminine in nature, and 2) Debussy exploited women in his private relations, and therefore :? I am not sure that I agree with any of that, or am I misunderstanding?
          Whilst I love the Gallic charm of the paris Orchestras in the 50s and ealr 60s recordings I think that La Mer can also takrpe the smooth BPO string sound! Intersting though that HvK never recorded Images, Nocturnes or Jeux!

          Comment

          • BBMmk2
            Late Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 20908

            #6
            I do rather like the recordings of Rattle and Abbado's of Debussy. Quite sublime, in my opinion.
            Don’t cry for me
            I go where music was born

            J S Bach 1685-1750

            Comment

            • cloughie
              Full Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 22259

              #7
              Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
              I do rather like the recordings of Rattle and Abbado's of Debussy. Quite sublime, in my opinion.
              Yup, I particularly like Abbado's BostonSO Nocturnes, Lucerne La Mer and Damoiselle Elue with Maria Ewing and Brigitte Balleys.

              Comment

              • Serial_Apologist
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 38089

                #8
                Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                Karajan’s “Das Mer” would be nomination for stinker. I ‘m not a Karajan hater by any means but that is a misfire.

                I am not sure that I follow Serial Apologist line of thinking in the OP. Is the argument that: 1) Debussy Music is feminine in nature, and 2) Debussy exploited women in his private relations, and therefore :? I am not sure that I agree with any of that, or am I misunderstanding?
                Well Richard, I'm just struck by the juxtaposition of the alleged "femininity" of a lot of Debussy's music, together with the way in which he carried himself - (and it's true we've had arguments on this forum regarding whether there is such a thing as masculine or feminine music) - and his terrible treatment of his women. I can't think he composed the music he did merely as some sort of male display.

                Oddly enough, (Sir, for those who insist) Roger Scruton - of all people - is leading a discussion next week on Radio 3, asking questions as to music's allegedly redeeming and civilising qualities: Monday 26 March, 10.45 pm The Essay: Is Music a Civilising Force? (First of five nightly programmes).

                Comment

                • Bryn
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 24688

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                  Well Richard, I'm just struck by the juxtaposition of the alleged "femininity" of a lot of Debussy's music, together with the way in which he carried himself - (and it's true we've had arguments on this forum regarding whether there is such a thing as masculine or feminine music) - and his terrible treatment of his women. I can't think he composed the music he did merely as some sort of male display.

                  Oddly enough, (Sir, for those who insist) Roger Scruton - of all people - is leading a discussion next week on Radio 3, asking questions as to music's allegedly redeeming and civilising qualities: Monday 26 March, 10.45 pm The Essay: Is Music a Civilising Force? (First of five nightly programmes).
                  I thought Debussy was generally regarded as something of a misanthropic, regardless of the sex of the fellow humans involved. There's that well quoted remark of Bartok's re. being insulted by Debussy, for instance.

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 38089

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                    I thought Debussy was generally regarded as something of a misanthropic, regardless of the sex of the fellow humans involved. There's that well quoted remark of Bartok's re. being insulted by Debussy, for instance.
                    Oh yes - as I seem to remember, Bartok visited the Conservatoire, was it? and had asked to meet someone he held in high esteem. The receptionist then asked who, citing various luminaries, to be told that it had to be Debussy. "Well, he'll almost certainly be rude to you. Do you want to be insulted by Debussy?", came back the warning advice.

                    Comment

                    • ardcarp
                      Late member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 11102

                      #11
                      The point I was going to make in my deleted message is that surely we have to separate the morality/personality of the composer from his creative genius. Don't we?

                      Comment

                      • Bryn
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 24688

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                        Oh yes - as I seem to remember, Bartok visited the Conservatoire, was it? and had asked to meet someone he held in high esteem. The receptionist then asked who, citing various luminaries, to be told that it had to be Debussy. "Well, he'll almost certainly be rude to you. Do you want to be insulted by Debussy?", came back the warning advice.
                        The crucial point was that Bartok's response to being told that Debussy was very rude was "then I would like to be insulted by Debussy". I don't recall any report of a meeting between the two having taken place though.

                        Comment

                        • teamsaint
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 25279

                          #13
                          Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                          The point I was going to make in my deleted message is that surely we have to separate the morality/personality of the composer from his creative genius. Don't we?
                          For me the point is that we can, if we wish. Or not. They are both valid responses.

                          On the whole though, best not to allow a partial understanding of a personality get in the way of what the music gives us.
                          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                          I am not a number, I am a free man.

                          Comment

                          • Lat-Literal
                            Guest
                            • Aug 2015
                            • 6983

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                            The point I was going to make in my deleted message is that surely we have to separate the morality/personality of the composer from his creative genius. Don't we?
                            I'm not sure that I hear - or wish to hear - the man and his women in his music.

                            Critics do the same with Delius and actually I find it quite unhelpful.

                            Far better to stick it on one forgotten side with the label "the ways of some creatives".

                            Not that it would ideally be even as specific as that in the perception.

                            Rather it would be, somewhat fittingly, abstract.

                            Comment

                            • gurnemanz
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 7463

                              #15
                              Enjoyed the Debussy songs today - Lorna Anderson, Malcolm Martineau. Prompted me to do a quick tour of my collection. Sandrine Piau with Jos van Immerseel on his Erard piano. F Lott with Graham Johnson in the Baudelaire settings. Regine Crespin. Phillipe Jaroussky's lovely recent countertenor versions. + Maggie Teyte - possibly my favourite.
                              All great stuff.

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