Puccini: 16-20.10.2017

[JimD]

Is there an underlying though rarely voiced view that Puccini is not really a 'proper', 'serious' composer?

[Conchis]

Is there an underlying though rarely voiced view that Puccini is not really a 'proper', 'serious' composer?

Yes, there seems to be.

In my view, this is unfair. I would rate him as vastly superior to Verdi as an operatic composer .

[Stanfordian]

Yes, there seems to be.

In my view, this is unfair. I would rate him as vastly superior to Verdi as an operatic composer .

That's some claim Conchis. Based on what?

[Conchis]

That's some claim Conchis. Based on what?

I think Verdi wrote a lot of very ordinary, non-descript music and his 'galley years' operas DO NOT impress me!

Also, up until (say) Don Carlos, his orchestral writing was not very interesting. Things improved in his final years but I don't like the 'grand guitar' accompaniment in so many of his operas. The fact that I also STRONGLY DISLIKE Gilber & Sullivan probably doesn't help here, either.

Puccini understood tragedy and I think the fact that he didn't always know what he wanted (so many of his operas seemed to be 'worried' into existence) was probably a strength, in the end.

La Boheme and Madama Butterly deserve to be as popular as they are. As does Tosca, although it's lowbrow stuff.

His masterpiece, to my mind, is La Fanciulla del West: it takes a special kind of talent to create a happy ending that is also heartbreakingly sad. How many people in the creative arts - novelists/playwrights, etc. - have been able to do that?

[JimD]

I confess I was at a less elevated level. Something along the lines of: 'How can he be any good, with all those great tunes?' I'm vaguely reminded of Britten rehearsing the boys choir (I think) for the Requiem: 'It's modern music: you're not meant to enjoy it.' (I paraphrase.)

[BBMmk2]

I confess I was at a less elevated level. Something along the lines of: 'How can he be any good, with all those great tunes?' I'm vaguely reminded of Britten rehearsing the boys choir (I think) for the Requiem: 'It's modern music: you're not meant to enjoy it.' (I paraphrase.)

I think he's tops, ever since I heard him for the first time, many years ago.

[Stanfordian]

I think Verdi wrote a lot of very ordinary, non-descript music and his 'galley years' operas DO NOT impress me!

Also, up until (say) Don Carlos, his orchestral writing was not very interesting. Things improved in his final years but I don't like the 'grand guitar' accompaniment in so many of his operas. The fact that I also STRONGLY DISLIKE Gilber & Sullivan probably doesn't help here, either.

Puccini understood tragedy and I think the fact that he didn't always know what he wanted (so many of his operas seemed to be 'worried' into existence) was probably a strength, in the end.

La Boheme and Madama Butterly deserve to be as popular as they are. As does Tosca, although it's lowbrow stuff.

His masterpiece, to my mind, is La Fanciulla del West: it takes a special kind of talent to create a happy ending that is also heartbreakingly sad. How many people in the creative arts - novelists/playwrights, etc. - have been able to do that?

Hiya Conchis,

According to wonderful operabase.com in terms of world productions the most popular opera composers are Verdi, Mozart & Puccini that order and by some distance from the others. That's what the public go to see. We are dealing with geniuses here! So pointing out flaws seem to go against the grain somehow.

Personally Verdi is my first choice. Probably due to my interest of historical subjects. Although not high on the current lists of performances Meyerbeer and Halevy are also great masters of opera but their music is very much out of vogue however I love the era of French Grand Opera. But I also admire verismo too. Maybe I just love opera!

[Stanley Stewart]

Is there an underlying though rarely voiced view that Puccini is not really a 'proper', 'serious' composer?

My mantra here is usually Oberon's in A Midsummer Night's Dream:

"...See as thou was won't to see:
Dian's bud o'er Cupid's flower
Hath such force and blessed power."

During the recent dreich spell, I've much enjoyed preparing a DVD compilation
from off-air transmissions; a BBC 2 screening of Tosca, Covent Garden, Christmas Eve,
2011; Angela Gheorghiu, Jonas Kaufmann & Bryn Terfel - Orchestra conducted by
Antonio Pappano with the sustained power we expect from Puccini, along with
several gasps of sheer pleasure from this viewer. A bonus, too, as the main feature
was preceded by an enlghtened 60 mins documentary, Pappano's Essential Tosca, narrated by the maestro with his usual articulate precision, against appropriate locations in Rome. I hope these treasures are now accessible on iPlayer!

As a piece de resistance, I've also added a 'live' Covent Garden transmission
of Tosca, Act 2, (1964), delightfully narrated by Sir David Webster with a clarity of spoken English we seldom hear today. A formidable cast: Maria Callas & Tito Gobbi unsurpassed.

"O divine music, Renew our hearts." (King Priam)

[Conchis]

Hiya Conchis,

According to wonderful operabase.com in terms of world productions the most popular opera composers are Verdi, Mozart & Puccini that order and by some distance from the others. That's what the public go to see. We are dealing with geniuses here! So pointing out flaws seem to go against the grain somehow.

Personally Verdi is my first choice. Probably due to my interest of historical subjects. Although not high on the current lists of performances Meyerbeer and Halevy are also great masters of opera but their music is very much out of vogue however I love the era of French Grand Opera. But I also admire verismo too. Maybe I just love opera!

Interesting statisitics, there, Stanfordian! :)

I love opera, too, but I'll confess I'm with Edward Downes in not much liking Mozart's operas. I'm definitely in a minority here but i think his comic operas go on far too long for what they are. As for his opera seria - i fear I don't get on with it as a genre.

I went to see Robert Le Diable at Covent Garden a few years back, because I was intrigued to hear Meyerbeer (I'm a Wagnerite and I knew what R.W. thought of him). I'm afraid I disliked it fairly intensely: the music unmemorable and ill-served by Laurent Pelly's high camp production (I normally enjoy Pelly's work).

[Stanfordian]

Interesting statisitics, there, Stanfordian! :)

I love opera, too, but I'll confess I'm with Edward Downes in not much liking Mozart's operas. I'm definitely in a minority here but i think his comic operas go on far too long for what they are. As for his opera seria - i fear I don't get on with it as a genre.

I went to see Robert Le Diable at Covent Garden a few years back, because I was intrigued to hear Meyerbeer (I'm a Wagnerite and I knew what R.W. thought of him). I'm afraid I disliked it fairly intensely: the music unmemorable and ill-served by Laurent Pelly's high camp production (I normally enjoy Pelly's work).

Hiya Conchis,

In truth, I feel additional tolerance and a strong ambition to expand ones music appreciation is needed here.