Olivier Messiaen (1908 - 1992): CotW, 10 - 14/7/17

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Donald MacLeod follows Messiaen's career in the five programmes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08xcsp7

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08xcvxp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08xcvxt

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08xcvy0

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08xcvy2

(Links provided for playlists and BBC blether.)

[BBMmk2]

Might be catching up with this. Although there is the evening slot, whilst I am away. I think they are concentrating on his organ output?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Might be catching up with this. Although there is the evening slot, whilst I am away. I think they are concentrating on his organ output?

I believe so, Bbm - but plenty of other stuff, too.

[Serial_Apologist]

I had previously thought I'd heard all of Messiaen's music over time, but if I'm not mistaken, one or two of the pieces advertised are new to me.

[Bryn]

I had previously thought I'd heard all of Messiaen's music over time, but if I'm not mistaken, one or two of the pieces advertised are new to me.

Now if you had mentioned "a number of pieces" (dead pan).

I was at the performance of Chant des déportés, which recording is to be found in the DG complete Messiaen box, etc.

[Vox Humana]

I shall listen. I'm so glad to see the piano preludes on the menu: IMO they are lovely pieces that don't get heard nearly enough. I have always adored the idiom of Messiaen's early music. I just wish I ould say the same about his later stuff, which leaves me cold. His last two big organ suites (the Holy Trinity and Holy Sacrament) lack individuality. Play me a movement from either at random and I couldn't tell you which of the two it came from. As an organ scholar I used to play four or five movements from Livre d'orgue and felt very virtuous, but nowadays I wonder why I bothered. I think I require a tonal anchor of some sort - but OTOH I can enjoy Boulez in small doses so I'm not quite sure what my problem is.

A question for those more clued up than me: Did Messiaen continue to use his "modes of limited transposition" in his later years, or did he abandon that framework? In his early music the modes lend distinct flavours to the music in a way that I cannot detect in his later music. Certainly the awe-inspiring Les Yeux dans les Roues from Livre d'Orgue doesn't: it's composed entirely of twelve-note rows.

[makropulos]

A question for those more clued up than me: Did Messiaen continue to use his "modes of limited transposition" in his later years, or did he abandon that framework? In his early music the modes lend distinct flavours to the music in a way that I cannot detect in his later music. Certainly the awe-inspiring Les Yeux dans les Roues from Livre d'Orgue doesn't: it's composed entirely of twelve-note rows.

Yes he did - but as you say, he used other techniques as well. In parts of "Des Canyons aux étoiles" and in "Eclairs sur l'Au-delà" there are passages in Modes 2 and 3, and the same is true of parts of "La Transfiguration".

[Vox Humana]

Yes he did - but as you say, he used other techniques as well. In parts of "Des Canyons aux étoiles" and in "Eclairs sur l'Au-delà" there are passages in Modes 2 and 3, and the same is true of parts of "La Transguration".

[ardcarp]

one or two of the pieces advertised are new to me

Indeed. After a weekend away, I was driving along today, half-listening to R3, ignorant of who this week's CotW was and certainly ignorant of the piece being played. All sorts of composers went through my mind, even Hindemith. Totally wide of the mark of course, but Le Tombeau Resplendissant seems untypical of Messiaen. I'd never heard it or heard of it before. What an interesting early work, and how strange that Olivier ignored it. Maybe its thematic workings were just too Germanic for his developing tastes?

[Beresford]

Messiaen - Concert à Quatre. I have just heard this for the first time in my life on Friday's CotW . In the words of one Amazon reviewer - "It has quite blown me away. What a stunning piece of music, and absolutely beautifully played. The second movement in particular moved me to tears." Why haven't I heard it before? Is it ignored because it was unfinished (like Bach's Art of Fugue), or because it refers to so many other composer's music? Why isn't there a performance of a major Messiaen piece every year in the proms (not just Turangalila with the National Youth Orchestra). What is the expert view on this work, that seems to be hidden?
Many years ago I wrote in a letter "Birdsong transforms modern music, it introduces joy & humour & intrinsic energy where previously there was none." But Birdsong is so little used (with exceptions - thanks Ferney). Maybe it has gone the same way as fugues, after the death of JS Bach.

[Richard Barrett]

Messiaen - Concert à Quatre. I have just heard this for the first time in my life on Friday's CotW. In the words of one Amazon reviewer - "It has quite blown me away. What a stunning piece of music, and absolutely beautifully played. The second movement in particular moved me to tears." Why haven't I heard it before? Is it ignored because it was unfinished (like Bach's Art of Fugue), or because it refers to so many other composer's music? Why isn't there a performance of a major Messiaen piece every year in the proms (not just Turangalila with the National Youth Orchestra). What is the expert view on this work, that seems to be hidden? Many years ago I wrote in a letter "Birdsong transforms modern music, it introduces joy & humour & intrinsic energy where previously there was none." But Birdsong is so little used (with exceptions - thanks Ferney). Maybe it has gone the same way as fugues, after the death of JS Bach.

The Concert à quatre was completed by Yvonne Loriod, as I expect you know, although it was Messiaen who had decided to include in it an orchestrated version of his own "Vocalise" from 1933 - is this what you're hearing as "other composers' music" I wonder? A piece with soloistic parts for four instruments isn't going to be performed as often as a piece with only one soloist, I think; and the Concert does come over as a little uncharacteristic of Messiaen's late style in some ways, although that isn't necessarily a criticism, and he would often reintegrate elements from his own musical past into new works, as in the two slow movements of Eclairs sur l'au-delà, which have a clear precedent in the last movement of L'Ascension. As for fugues, Beethoven wrote a few quite impressive ones! And as for birdsong, of course Messiaen is the only composer to have made it so central to his music - before him it was used mostly in a simple anecdotal kind of way (as in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony), so his use of it is inextricable from his personal style, unlike Bach's fugues which build on an extensive preexistent tradition of such contrapuntal pieces.

But yes, Messiaen every year at the Proms would be a very attractive idea.

[DracoM]

What I love about his music is the sense of fun and exhilaration in it as well as quirkiness.

[Beresford]

What I love about his music is the sense of fun and exhilaration in it as well as quirkiness.

Sums up very well my own feelings about Messiaen.
And thanks to Richard for putting into context my little rant about Concert à Quatre.

[BBMmk2]

Very much so, Beresford. Richard Barrett is rather good at that kind of thing. I always like reading his reasonings and it helps to understand the music better.

[Bryn]

You wait for ages and then two come along together. Another outing for La Mort du nombre durng Lunchtime Concert today.